5 ms·

As a physicist, it's disgusting that these attitudes are still tolerated...

hef19898 8y ago
You are right. And I am not sure why you are getting down voted. As stated in the article, CERN distanced itself from these statements. An another physicist present during the presentation consiedered the conclusion superficial.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
People are openly getting chosen for jobs on the basis of their gender or race, and that's 'disgusting'. That said, CERN shouldn't be the place for this kind of discussion. Though it should be happening somewhere.
- foolrush 8y ago
  > People are openly getting chosen for jobs on the basis of their gender or race, and that's 'disgusting'. Why exactly do you think so many men, and in particular _white_ men, are in these positions to begin with?
  - gmueckl 8y ago
    The answer depends on the continent.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    Why does YC invest overwhelmingly in more young men than women? Is this just a big ole bastion of discrimination here? Or is the answer more complicated than just "because bigotry!" ?
    - foolrush 8y ago
      The posts to these sorts of articles in a forum absolutely littered with male white dudes and a dearth of sociologists is a perfect echo chamber. Have a look at your statement and see where cultural feedback loops apply. > Why does YC invest overwhelmingly in more young men than women? Equating investment, or return on investment of capital, as a barometer of "success" or some form of empiricist metric of adaptability is a first issue. > Is this just a big ole bastion of discrimination here? As to the second point regarding discrimination, yes. It is a perfect case in point as to where and how discriminatory practice gains a foothold.
      - sonnyblarney 8y ago
        "Equating investment, or return on investment of capital, as a barometer of "success" ... is a first issue" No, ROI is a great measure of 'success' for an institution like YC, in fact probably the best individual metric. " It is a perfect case in point as to where and how discriminatory practice gains a foothold" Or it could be the opposite of that: a place where people are mostly free of ideological assumptions and discrimination. "absolutely littered with male white dudes and a dearth of sociologists is a perfect echo chamber." Making such an assumption is 'actual' bigotry, not 'possible discrimination' because the statement devalues the opinions of those making comments essentially on the basis of their gender etc.. Personally, I'm perfectly open to nuanced ideas on how all of this should work out. I definitely think there is work to be done, and we can be more thoughtful about all of this ... but I find so many of the SJW arguments are 'hammers' from the 1960's, like 'unequal outcomes = sexism'. Those arguments are having less and less validity. We need nuance and dispassion on the issue.
        foolrush 8y ago
        > No, ROI is a great measure of 'success' for an institution like YC, in fact probably the best individual metric. It makes for a broken culture. Have a look around you. Chasing profit is no indicator of cultural value. Unless you want to start discussing Beanie Babies and Tulip crazes. Or the problematic aspects of Facebook et al. > Or it could be the opposite of that: a place where people are mostly free of ideological assumptions and discrimination. I'd do a spit-take if I could. You should try 100 level philosophy and perhaps investigate epistemology.
  - castlecrasher2 8y ago
    Because white men constitute a large portion of the population, the working class, and the educated. I'm sure many would agree that that itself presents a bias of "if you're not a white man you're not competent" but I disagree that making it easier for outsiders to become educated or start in the field produces the best outcome for the field.
    - foolrush 8y ago
      > but I disagree that making it easier for outsiders to become educated Surely you didn't mean to type that?
      - castlecrasher2 8y ago
        Surely you read the entire sentence? Simply put, I don't think lowering the barriers of entry, whether universally or for selected groups, on difficult fields produces equally skilled workers.
- intarga 8y ago
  If he wanted to have a conversation about there being a better method than quotas for overcoming these social problems, I wouldn't have a problem. But that's not what he said, he tried to make the argument that women are worse at physics than men, which is not only patently false, but (I should think) understandably offensive to all the women physicists who do excellent work in the field.

hef19898 8y ago

You are right. And I am not sure why you are getting down voted. As stated in the article, CERN distanced itself from these statements. An another physicist present during the presentation consiedered the conclusion superficial.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

People are openly getting chosen for jobs on the basis of their gender or race, and that's 'disgusting'. That said, CERN shouldn't be the place for this kind of discussion. Though it should be happening somewhere.

foolrush 8y ago
> People are openly getting chosen for jobs on the basis of their gender or race, and that's 'disgusting'. Why exactly do you think so many men, and in particular _white_ men, are in these positions to begin with?
- gmueckl 8y ago
  The answer depends on the continent.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  Why does YC invest overwhelmingly in more young men than women? Is this just a big ole bastion of discrimination here? Or is the answer more complicated than just "because bigotry!" ?
  - foolrush 8y ago
    The posts to these sorts of articles in a forum absolutely littered with male white dudes and a dearth of sociologists is a perfect echo chamber. Have a look at your statement and see where cultural feedback loops apply. > Why does YC invest overwhelmingly in more young men than women? Equating investment, or return on investment of capital, as a barometer of "success" or some form of empiricist metric of adaptability is a first issue. > Is this just a big ole bastion of discrimination here? As to the second point regarding discrimination, yes. It is a perfect case in point as to where and how discriminatory practice gains a foothold.
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      "Equating investment, or return on investment of capital, as a barometer of "success" ... is a first issue" No, ROI is a great measure of 'success' for an institution like YC, in fact probably the best individual metric. " It is a perfect case in point as to where and how discriminatory practice gains a foothold" Or it could be the opposite of that: a place where people are mostly free of ideological assumptions and discrimination. "absolutely littered with male white dudes and a dearth of sociologists is a perfect echo chamber." Making such an assumption is 'actual' bigotry, not 'possible discrimination' because the statement devalues the opinions of those making comments essentially on the basis of their gender etc.. Personally, I'm perfectly open to nuanced ideas on how all of this should work out. I definitely think there is work to be done, and we can be more thoughtful about all of this ... but I find so many of the SJW arguments are 'hammers' from the 1960's, like 'unequal outcomes = sexism'. Those arguments are having less and less validity. We need nuance and dispassion on the issue.
      - foolrush 8y ago
        > No, ROI is a great measure of 'success' for an institution like YC, in fact probably the best individual metric. It makes for a broken culture. Have a look around you. Chasing profit is no indicator of cultural value. Unless you want to start discussing Beanie Babies and Tulip crazes. Or the problematic aspects of Facebook et al. > Or it could be the opposite of that: a place where people are mostly free of ideological assumptions and discrimination. I'd do a spit-take if I could. You should try 100 level philosophy and perhaps investigate epistemology.
- castlecrasher2 8y ago
  Because white men constitute a large portion of the population, the working class, and the educated. I'm sure many would agree that that itself presents a bias of "if you're not a white man you're not competent" but I disagree that making it easier for outsiders to become educated or start in the field produces the best outcome for the field.
  - foolrush 8y ago
    > but I disagree that making it easier for outsiders to become educated Surely you didn't mean to type that?
    - castlecrasher2 8y ago
      Surely you read the entire sentence? Simply put, I don't think lowering the barriers of entry, whether universally or for selected groups, on difficult fields produces equally skilled workers.
intarga 8y ago
If he wanted to have a conversation about there being a better method than quotas for overcoming these social problems, I wouldn't have a problem. But that's not what he said, he tried to make the argument that women are worse at physics than men, which is not only patently false, but (I should think) understandably offensive to all the women physicists who do excellent work in the field.