4 ms·

Unfortunately, the current alternative to e-voting is long, tedious and non-realtime. Recently I had an idea about how to go at this: The elephant in the room

Unfortunately, the current alternative to e-voting is long, tedious and non-realtime. Recently I had an idea about how to go at this: The elephant in the room is that you're trusting a single for-profit party with the accuracy of the result. If you want to assure much more tamper-proof results, the key would be making this an adversarial task between a voting and a verification machine. Have a voting machine count the vote and print a receipt. Standardize an interface between the voting and the verification machine which is a transparent plastic window where the voter can physically view his choice before pushing the button at the verification machine that draws in the voting ticket, verifies the vote, counts it again and stores the physical paper for retrieval (and regular, infrequent audit). Make the voting and verification machine vendors adhere to the standard interface, let them face steep penalties for any deviation between voting and verification result, forbid any common ownership between the companies and never let any of these companies supply more than 50% of machines for any given election.

maxerickson 8y ago
I've had the good luck to vote in elections where I just mark a paper ballot with a, uh, marker. I wouldn't call it tedious, it takes longer to read the names for a seat or an issue than it does to make a mark. Then it goes into a scanner/lock box, so there's a count available right when the poll closes...
wazoox 8y ago
Come on, it's a couple of hours of work, and it's the occasion to understand the democratic process and do your civic duty by participating to the ballot count. Having fair elections beats real-time results hands down.
- bochoh 8y ago
  Not to mention that you get mandated time off (iirc 4 hours unimpeded by work) to vote on election days here in the states. There are some caveats and restrictions on getting this time but it does ensure you can get to the polls even with a odd work schedule.
  - wool_gather 8y ago
    This is entirely state-by-state; there's no federal law that covers it. As such, the exact terms vary pretty widely; in many cases there is no requirement if you have n hours (sometimes 2) before or after work when the polls are open; the time can be unpaid in many cases, which can make it a difficult choice for people paid hourly. It's also not really expressed as an affirmative mandate per se; you have to request time off, in some cases it's the employer's choice when the time is taken, and if they "retaliate" or fire you then you can complain after the fact. So now you're in a dispute with your employer and you missed your chance to vote...hooray.
    - bochoh 8y ago
      Yes thank you for this clarification - I wrote my initial comment having just woken up.
  - c0nfused 8y ago
    Serious question, what state is this? I have only voted in 3 states. All of them treated voting day like any other work day.
    - bochoh 8y ago
      I live in New York. As another sibling posted it comes with some stipulations. http://www.elections.ny.gov/nysboe/elections/attentionemployees.pdf http://www.elections.ny.gov/nysboe/elections/attentionemploy...
- endymi0n 8y ago
  In a world where facts don't change anyone's opinion anyway, thanks for yours — I get your point and I feel yours might be better.
  - wazoox 8y ago
    Thank you :) It did dawn on me only recently, when I reluctantly accepted to participate at the request of someone I know; afterwards I found the process really interesting and got to repeat the experience several times, in all positions (setting up the poll station, keeping the books all day, counting ballots, and monitoring the election as a "citizen surveyor" as permitted by law). It's also an occasion to speak all day long with people with whom you completely disagree politically, which is much too uncommon :)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
andrewflnr 8y ago
The alternative is absentee ballots.
yifanl 8y ago
The number of people available to count scales directly with the number of votes to count. Votes happen what, every few months at most? I would say saving a few hours every 100 days isn't worth that investment.
moviuro 8y ago
> Unfortunately, the current alternative to e-voting is long, tedious and non-realtime. Who cares about all this, when we can avoid hacked elections with said alternatives? - specify long. It already takes >8 hours (here in France) for voters to all come cast their vote (8am -> 4pm, and sometimes later in large cities). What's a few more hours for the final count? - specify tedious. Taking shortcuts can't cut it, and sounds like a recipe for disaster. Counting envelopes and ballots is not the most exciting job ever, but it can be made easy if you have lots of "voting neighborhoods" with e.g. <750 voters - non-realtime. Who cares? If TV and radio want to spread the news, they can question people coming out of the voting building. In France, we know that final vote counts are published on voting day at 8pm. (Or is it the day after?) Anything published before are estimates, as should be. Also, why would you give any control of elections to third-parties (and require financial audits, technical limitations, etc.)? The people (e.g. randomly drawn) + the current municipal staff can handle counting envelopes. Why trust every single voter individually (peer into the glass window), when you can have a "hive" check what they do? (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18111861 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18111861)
- etiennemarcel 8y ago
  At 8pm it's still estimates, the official results usually come after a few days.
mikeash 8y ago
What’s so bad about it being long, tedious, and non-realtime?
naasking 8y ago
> Unfortunately, the current alternative to e-voting is long, tedious and non-realtime. It really isn't. But even if it were, I fail to see the importance of any of these properties when balanced against voting fraud and the validity of our representative democracy.

maxerickson 8y ago

I've had the good luck to vote in elections where I just mark a paper ballot with a, uh, marker. I wouldn't call it tedious, it takes longer to read the names for a seat or an issue than it does to make a mark. Then it goes into a scanner/lock box, so there's a count available right when the poll closes...

wazoox 8y ago

Come on, it's a couple of hours of work, and it's the occasion to understand the democratic process and do your civic duty by participating to the ballot count. Having fair elections beats real-time results hands down.

bochoh 8y ago
Not to mention that you get mandated time off (iirc 4 hours unimpeded by work) to vote on election days here in the states. There are some caveats and restrictions on getting this time but it does ensure you can get to the polls even with a odd work schedule.
- wool_gather 8y ago
  This is entirely state-by-state; there's no federal law that covers it. As such, the exact terms vary pretty widely; in many cases there is no requirement if you have n hours (sometimes 2) before or after work when the polls are open; the time can be unpaid in many cases, which can make it a difficult choice for people paid hourly. It's also not really expressed as an affirmative mandate per se; you have to request time off, in some cases it's the employer's choice when the time is taken, and if they "retaliate" or fire you then you can complain after the fact. So now you're in a dispute with your employer and you missed your chance to vote...hooray.
  - bochoh 8y ago
    Yes thank you for this clarification - I wrote my initial comment having just woken up.
- c0nfused 8y ago
  Serious question, what state is this? I have only voted in 3 states. All of them treated voting day like any other work day.
  - bochoh 8y ago
    I live in New York. As another sibling posted it comes with some stipulations. http://www.elections.ny.gov/nysboe/elections/attentionemployees.pdf http://www.elections.ny.gov/nysboe/elections/attentionemploy...
endymi0n 8y ago
In a world where facts don't change anyone's opinion anyway, thanks for yours — I get your point and I feel yours might be better.
- wazoox 8y ago
  Thank you :) It did dawn on me only recently, when I reluctantly accepted to participate at the request of someone I know; afterwards I found the process really interesting and got to repeat the experience several times, in all positions (setting up the poll station, keeping the books all day, counting ballots, and monitoring the election as a "citizen surveyor" as permitted by law). It's also an occasion to speak all day long with people with whom you completely disagree politically, which is much too uncommon :)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

andrewflnr 8y ago

The alternative is absentee ballots.

yifanl 8y ago

The number of people available to count scales directly with the number of votes to count. Votes happen what, every few months at most? I would say saving a few hours every 100 days isn't worth that investment.

moviuro 8y ago

> Unfortunately, the current alternative to e-voting is long, tedious and non-realtime. Who cares about all this, when we can avoid hacked elections with said alternatives? - specify long. It already takes >8 hours (here in France) for voters to all come cast their vote (8am -> 4pm, and sometimes later in large cities). What's a few more hours for the final count? - specify tedious. Taking shortcuts can't cut it, and sounds like a recipe for disaster. Counting envelopes and ballots is not the most exciting job ever, but it can be made easy if you have lots of "voting neighborhoods" with e.g. <750 voters - non-realtime. Who cares? If TV and radio want to spread the news, they can question people coming out of the voting building. In France, we know that final vote counts are published on voting day at 8pm. (Or is it the day after?) Anything published before are estimates, as should be. Also, why would you give any control of elections to third-parties (and require financial audits, technical limitations, etc.)? The people (e.g. randomly drawn) + the current municipal staff can handle counting envelopes. Why trust every single voter individually (peer into the glass window), when you can have a "hive" check what they do? (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18111861 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18111861)

etiennemarcel 8y ago
At 8pm it's still estimates, the official results usually come after a few days.

mikeash 8y ago

What’s so bad about it being long, tedious, and non-realtime?

naasking 8y ago

> Unfortunately, the current alternative to e-voting is long, tedious and non-realtime. It really isn't. But even if it were, I fail to see the importance of any of these properties when balanced against voting fraud and the validity of our representative democracy.