4 ms·

Not to be rude, but it seems fairly likely the changes you observed from your change in diet are a result of placebo. The levels of rosemary and sage found in

Not to be rude, but it seems fairly likely the changes you observed from your change in diet are a result of placebo. The levels of rosemary and sage found in most foods probably aren't going to have much effect one way or another, let alone being an extremely potent anxiolytic. Beef and potatoes probably aren't going to reliably treat bipolar swings and suicidal ideation. Vitamin C probably isn't going to stop spontaneous rage, and oranges are even less likely to since they only contain 70 - 120mg of vitamin C. Diet is certainly important to physical and mental health, and anything's possible, but I'm skeptical that there's a direct cause and effect between those specific foods and relief from those specific symptoms.

DoreenMichele 8y ago
I am really burned out on hearing "It's placebo effect!" from people who firmly believe diet cannot possibly have a significant effect on (mental) health, but the power of believing it will make a difference absolutely can. So I'm just going to leave these two resources and quotes pulled from one of the blog posts I did about mediating the salt-lithium connection with diet: http://www.webmd.com/bipolar-disorder/guide/bipolar-diet-foods-to-avoid?page=2 http://www.webmd.com/bipolar-disorder/guide/bipolar-diet-foo... Which Foods Should I Avoid if I Have Bipolar Disorder? •Watching your salt if you have high blood pressure but not skimping on salt if you are being prescribed lithium since low salt intake can cause higher levels of lithium in the blood http://www.collectivewizdom.com/Lithium-LithiumRichFoods.html http://www.collectivewizdom.com/Lithium-LithiumRichFoods.htm... Lithium Rich Foods In 1971, a Texas biochemist named Dr. Earl Dawson noticed that the murder and suicide rates around El Paso were significantly lower than the rest of the state. After investigation, he discovered that the lower rates of suicide, murder and admissions to mental hospitals were linked to the high levels of lithium found in El Paso’s water supply.
- keldaris 8y ago
  The parent did not dispute that diet can have a significant effect on health, including mental health, only the particular examples you mentioned. Lithium in particular is a well known case that's been researched and has plenty of supporting literature. I have not seen comparable studies supporting the use of rosemary or Vitamin C for the indications you mentioned and the latter in particular seems unlikely unless you had a specific deficiency. Have you seen any literature for those examples?
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    This is one of the links in my original comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16140867 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16140867 I've already stated that these decisions are based on research. I don't plan to try to "prove" anything here to people being dismissive of me rather than genuinely interested in what I know. I deal with far too much of that and it never, ever goes good places. The parent did not dispute that diet can have a significant effect on health, including mental health, only the particular examples you mentioned. Which boils down to claiming that my consistent observations of my experience over many years can be explained by the power of me believing it will work, but cannot be explained by actual chemistry. This is an incredibly tedious argument. To my mind, it is on par with advocating that we should all clap to bring Tinkerbell back. And I cannot comprehend how anyone who sees themselves as scientific can genuinely insist in earnest that the power of belief has more influence over my physical body than the power of food chemistry. For the record, I have a genetic disorder that predisposes me to become rapidly deficient in various nutrients, among other things. I will add that "placebos" are typically sugar pills and sugar has chemical impact on the brain akin to an opiate. So there is zero reason to believe that "placebo effect" is actually due to the power of belief and not due to food chemistry impacting brain activity. https://breakingmuscle.com/healthy-eating/the-science-and-substance-behind-your-emotional-eating https://breakingmuscle.com/healthy-eating/the-science-and-su...
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      > And I cannot comprehend how anyone who sees themselves as scientific can genuinely insist in earnest that the power of belief has more influence over my physical body than the power of food chemistry. It would appear belief can have an extreme severe acute impact on our bodies. It follows then belief can also have chronic affects. People can die simply because they've given up, life has beaten them and they feel defeat is inescapable, according to new research. The study, by Dr. John Leach, a senior research fellow at the University of Portsmouth, is the first to describe the clinical markers for 'give-up-itis', a term used to describe what is known medically as psychogenic death. https://m.medicalxpress.com/news/2018-09-people-die.html https://m.medicalxpress.com/news/2018-09-people-die.html HN discussion here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18083509 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18083509 It appears you didn’t comment on that one, so perhaps you missed it? Also, it stands to reason the affect of foods, herbs, essential oils, what have you, on people probably follows a bell curve distribution and therefore there are likely to be extreme outliers. This may explain why some people experience significant clinical effects from, say, Rosemary and Sage, while others not. This brings me to something I like to highlight: the difference between public health policy and individualised medicine. It might not be sound public health policy to put essential oils in the water, although I’m not aware of any rigorous studies, but may be sound advice for a component of individualised wholistic care. Disclosure: I’ve dabbled in nutritional and herbal medicine, with four years of formal study and the resultant certifications, here in Australia. For what it’s worth.
- Tharkun 8y ago
  Lithium (or rather Li+) is widely used to help manage mood disorders. From my experience with people on it, it seems to be pretty effective.
- meowface 8y ago
  Diet has a big effect on mental health, but any one given food usually won't create a big difference. Lithium is definitely very beneficial for people with bipolar disorder, but the amount of bioavailable lithium in food is usually pretty low. It's really hard to know just how much of a certain substance you're getting when it's solely by diet; it's much more measurable and replicable when you're taking an exact, concentrated dose of something on a consistent schedule. When you're eating food, you just can't reliably know what you're getting, and how much. It's certainly possible you found some food with particularly high concentrations of bioavailable lithium and then consumed enough of it to have an effect, but unless you were tracking it pretty closely or were into some really unusual foods, my guess is your overall lithium absorption probably didn't increase much. Regarding lithium and salt: lithium does have a relationship with sodium and there can be a higher requirement for sodium when you take lithium, but this is typically only ever going to be relevant for people who are prescribed lithium medication or are consuming an unusually high level of lithium in their food. It's the same thing with stuff like curcumin. Curcumin (one of the components of turmeric) definitely reduces inflammation, but eating food with turmeric once per day is probably only going to have a tiny marginal effect, even after a year. But consuming curcumin (ideally theracurmin) in capsule form could have an effect within hours or days, and you can judge exactly what it is and isn't doing for you. These things are important for averages; if people in a certain culture eat 500x more turmeric on average over their lifetime than another culture, then on average their rates of inflammation may be lower. But a random person saying "I want to reduce my inflammation" probably should try the pills first. Same with lithium in water supplies. It's an cumulative thing that can affect a population over generations, but the concentration is usually too low to drink tap water with lithium in it for a month and actually notice changes. Trying to treat serious psychological symptoms with rough approximations of potentially biounavailable versions of substances in food that you consume in inconsistent quantities and at inconsistent intervals really isn't a scientific way to address issues. I think if you want to see if vitamin C might help you with something, you should just take vitamin C supplements for a few weeks or months (at the same dose and roughly the same time every day). Same with lithium or anything else (though lithium treatment probably shouldn't be undergone without a doctor and a prescription). This can be complicated because sometimes substances work differently or more effectively when taken with other things that modulate or potentiate them (like coffee vs. caffeine pills), so sometimes consuming food or consuming multiple substances that mimic the ratios found in food can give a better outcome. But in general, I think diet is just too blunt an instrument for this kind of thing. And I'd go even further and say that concentrated rosemary/sage oil and vitamin C supplements probably aren't going to help most people (unless they were already deficient in vitamin C, which is pretty rare in developed countries) in general. Of the things you listed, lithium is the only substance I think would have a significant effect. If you really did consume more lithium from the change in diet (though I still think it's unlikely for you to know if you actually did or didn't consume significantly more bioavailable lithium), it's plausible all of your symptom changes could be explained by that. Lithium has been shown to reduce mood swings (including anger), anxiety, and suicidal thoughts. I would say one of the most significant effects of diet on physical and mental health (once you're already getting the right nutrients) is from avoiding foods which may cause immune responses like allergic reactions and inflammation. If your diet change resulted in you eating less of certain other foods, it's plausible that it was those foods that were partially contributing to your symptoms.
- mtgx 8y ago
  It seems that high amounts of salt are "bad for you" only in the context of low potassium. But most doctors either aren't aware of the fact that there needs to be a certain proportion of salt and potassium, or they don't bother telling patients because the doctors know most people won't eat anymore potassium-rich foods, so they just tell them to "eat less salt." This video has some references to studies backing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amJ-ev8Ial8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amJ-ev8Ial8 There's also this book that argues for the importance of salt in our food, of which I heard good things but haven't read: https://www.amazon.com/Salt-Fix-Experts-Wrong-Eating-ebook/dp/B01GBAJR9C https://www.amazon.com/Salt-Fix-Experts-Wrong-Eating-ebook/d...
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    My official diagnosis is atypical cystic fibrosis. CF medical clinics routinely include a dietitian on the medical team and the standard medical treatment includes prescribing a high fat, high salt, high calorie diet due to malabsorption and how it impacts salt processing and fat. So a medical specialist whose official specialty was pulmatology prescribed me a high salt diet years ago.

DoreenMichele 8y ago

I am really burned out on hearing "It's placebo effect!" from people who firmly believe diet cannot possibly have a significant effect on (mental) health, but the power of believing it will make a difference absolutely can. So I'm just going to leave these two resources and quotes pulled from one of the blog posts I did about mediating the salt-lithium connection with diet: http://www.webmd.com/bipolar-disorder/guide/bipolar-diet-foods-to-avoid?page=2 http://www.webmd.com/bipolar-disorder/guide/bipolar-diet-foo... Which Foods Should I Avoid if I Have Bipolar Disorder? •Watching your salt if you have high blood pressure but not skimping on salt if you are being prescribed lithium since low salt intake can cause higher levels of lithium in the blood http://www.collectivewizdom.com/Lithium-LithiumRichFoods.html http://www.collectivewizdom.com/Lithium-LithiumRichFoods.htm... Lithium Rich Foods In 1971, a Texas biochemist named Dr. Earl Dawson noticed that the murder and suicide rates around El Paso were significantly lower than the rest of the state. After investigation, he discovered that the lower rates of suicide, murder and admissions to mental hospitals were linked to the high levels of lithium found in El Paso’s water supply.

keldaris 8y ago
The parent did not dispute that diet can have a significant effect on health, including mental health, only the particular examples you mentioned. Lithium in particular is a well known case that's been researched and has plenty of supporting literature. I have not seen comparable studies supporting the use of rosemary or Vitamin C for the indications you mentioned and the latter in particular seems unlikely unless you had a specific deficiency. Have you seen any literature for those examples?
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  This is one of the links in my original comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16140867 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16140867 I've already stated that these decisions are based on research. I don't plan to try to "prove" anything here to people being dismissive of me rather than genuinely interested in what I know. I deal with far too much of that and it never, ever goes good places. The parent did not dispute that diet can have a significant effect on health, including mental health, only the particular examples you mentioned. Which boils down to claiming that my consistent observations of my experience over many years can be explained by the power of me believing it will work, but cannot be explained by actual chemistry. This is an incredibly tedious argument. To my mind, it is on par with advocating that we should all clap to bring Tinkerbell back. And I cannot comprehend how anyone who sees themselves as scientific can genuinely insist in earnest that the power of belief has more influence over my physical body than the power of food chemistry. For the record, I have a genetic disorder that predisposes me to become rapidly deficient in various nutrients, among other things. I will add that "placebos" are typically sugar pills and sugar has chemical impact on the brain akin to an opiate. So there is zero reason to believe that "placebo effect" is actually due to the power of belief and not due to food chemistry impacting brain activity. https://breakingmuscle.com/healthy-eating/the-science-and-substance-behind-your-emotional-eating https://breakingmuscle.com/healthy-eating/the-science-and-su...
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    > And I cannot comprehend how anyone who sees themselves as scientific can genuinely insist in earnest that the power of belief has more influence over my physical body than the power of food chemistry. It would appear belief can have an extreme severe acute impact on our bodies. It follows then belief can also have chronic affects. People can die simply because they've given up, life has beaten them and they feel defeat is inescapable, according to new research. The study, by Dr. John Leach, a senior research fellow at the University of Portsmouth, is the first to describe the clinical markers for 'give-up-itis', a term used to describe what is known medically as psychogenic death. https://m.medicalxpress.com/news/2018-09-people-die.html https://m.medicalxpress.com/news/2018-09-people-die.html HN discussion here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18083509 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18083509 It appears you didn’t comment on that one, so perhaps you missed it? Also, it stands to reason the affect of foods, herbs, essential oils, what have you, on people probably follows a bell curve distribution and therefore there are likely to be extreme outliers. This may explain why some people experience significant clinical effects from, say, Rosemary and Sage, while others not. This brings me to something I like to highlight: the difference between public health policy and individualised medicine. It might not be sound public health policy to put essential oils in the water, although I’m not aware of any rigorous studies, but may be sound advice for a component of individualised wholistic care. Disclosure: I’ve dabbled in nutritional and herbal medicine, with four years of formal study and the resultant certifications, here in Australia. For what it’s worth.
Tharkun 8y ago
Lithium (or rather Li+) is widely used to help manage mood disorders. From my experience with people on it, it seems to be pretty effective.
meowface 8y ago
Diet has a big effect on mental health, but any one given food usually won't create a big difference. Lithium is definitely very beneficial for people with bipolar disorder, but the amount of bioavailable lithium in food is usually pretty low. It's really hard to know just how much of a certain substance you're getting when it's solely by diet; it's much more measurable and replicable when you're taking an exact, concentrated dose of something on a consistent schedule. When you're eating food, you just can't reliably know what you're getting, and how much. It's certainly possible you found some food with particularly high concentrations of bioavailable lithium and then consumed enough of it to have an effect, but unless you were tracking it pretty closely or were into some really unusual foods, my guess is your overall lithium absorption probably didn't increase much. Regarding lithium and salt: lithium does have a relationship with sodium and there can be a higher requirement for sodium when you take lithium, but this is typically only ever going to be relevant for people who are prescribed lithium medication or are consuming an unusually high level of lithium in their food. It's the same thing with stuff like curcumin. Curcumin (one of the components of turmeric) definitely reduces inflammation, but eating food with turmeric once per day is probably only going to have a tiny marginal effect, even after a year. But consuming curcumin (ideally theracurmin) in capsule form could have an effect within hours or days, and you can judge exactly what it is and isn't doing for you. These things are important for averages; if people in a certain culture eat 500x more turmeric on average over their lifetime than another culture, then on average their rates of inflammation may be lower. But a random person saying "I want to reduce my inflammation" probably should try the pills first. Same with lithium in water supplies. It's an cumulative thing that can affect a population over generations, but the concentration is usually too low to drink tap water with lithium in it for a month and actually notice changes. Trying to treat serious psychological symptoms with rough approximations of potentially biounavailable versions of substances in food that you consume in inconsistent quantities and at inconsistent intervals really isn't a scientific way to address issues. I think if you want to see if vitamin C might help you with something, you should just take vitamin C supplements for a few weeks or months (at the same dose and roughly the same time every day). Same with lithium or anything else (though lithium treatment probably shouldn't be undergone without a doctor and a prescription). This can be complicated because sometimes substances work differently or more effectively when taken with other things that modulate or potentiate them (like coffee vs. caffeine pills), so sometimes consuming food or consuming multiple substances that mimic the ratios found in food can give a better outcome. But in general, I think diet is just too blunt an instrument for this kind of thing. And I'd go even further and say that concentrated rosemary/sage oil and vitamin C supplements probably aren't going to help most people (unless they were already deficient in vitamin C, which is pretty rare in developed countries) in general. Of the things you listed, lithium is the only substance I think would have a significant effect. If you really did consume more lithium from the change in diet (though I still think it's unlikely for you to know if you actually did or didn't consume significantly more bioavailable lithium), it's plausible all of your symptom changes could be explained by that. Lithium has been shown to reduce mood swings (including anger), anxiety, and suicidal thoughts. I would say one of the most significant effects of diet on physical and mental health (once you're already getting the right nutrients) is from avoiding foods which may cause immune responses like allergic reactions and inflammation. If your diet change resulted in you eating less of certain other foods, it's plausible that it was those foods that were partially contributing to your symptoms.
mtgx 8y ago
It seems that high amounts of salt are "bad for you" only in the context of low potassium. But most doctors either aren't aware of the fact that there needs to be a certain proportion of salt and potassium, or they don't bother telling patients because the doctors know most people won't eat anymore potassium-rich foods, so they just tell them to "eat less salt." This video has some references to studies backing this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amJ-ev8Ial8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amJ-ev8Ial8 There's also this book that argues for the importance of salt in our food, of which I heard good things but haven't read: https://www.amazon.com/Salt-Fix-Experts-Wrong-Eating-ebook/dp/B01GBAJR9C https://www.amazon.com/Salt-Fix-Experts-Wrong-Eating-ebook/d...
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  My official diagnosis is atypical cystic fibrosis. CF medical clinics routinely include a dietitian on the medical team and the standard medical treatment includes prescribing a high fat, high salt, high calorie diet due to malabsorption and how it impacts salt processing and fat. So a medical specialist whose official specialty was pulmatology prescribed me a high salt diet years ago.