4 ms·

Except it’s been proven over and over that there is no wage gap: https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/ http

Except it’s been proven over and over that there is no wage gap: https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy...

patagonia 8y ago
Lolz
wpietri 8y ago
That is an unedited opinion piece [1] from somebody who works for an antifeminist organization [2]. If that's what you count as proof, then maybe consider you're not being objective here. [1] https://www.cjr.org/innovations/newsrooms_boost_traffic.php https://www.cjr.org/innovations/newsrooms_boost_traffic.php and also https://www.joshsteimle.com/writing/how-being-a-forbes-contributor-works.html https://www.joshsteimle.com/writing/how-being-a-forbes-contr... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Women%27s_Forum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Women%27s_Forum
- malvosenior 8y ago
  Can you dispute the claims made? I grabbed the first Google result but there are many. I can’t find a single piece of data that says women are paid 70% of men for the same job. Can you?
  - wpietri 8y ago
    You're seriously asking me to do free research for the guy who started with an opinion and uncritically posted the first Google hit that agreed with his position? Why would that be a good use of my time?
    - malvosenior 8y ago
      I’ve already done the research, but you don’t seem to believe me so I’m telling you to go look for yourself. The “wage gap” is not a thing and it’s inevitable people are going to tell you that if you try to promote it.
      - wpietri 8y ago
        If you have done the research, then a) why did you cite an unreviewed opinion piece as your only evidence, and b) why did you ask me to do the work of disputing your claims instead of just providing the evidence? I obviously have looked and do believe it's a thing. Even individual CEOs discover it's a thing within their companies. For example, Salesforce: https://www.inc.com/marcel-schwantes/the-ceo-of-salesforce-found-out-female-employees-are-paid-less-than-men-his-response-is-a-priceless-leadership-lesson.html https://www.inc.com/marcel-schwantes/the-ceo-of-salesforce-f... If it didn't exist, it's certainly surprising that companies keep finding it internally and correcting it.
        malvosenior 8y ago
        That's a nice bit of PR but if you look at Salesforce's old blog, you'll see there was no gender pay gap: "Our assessment showed that we needed to adjust some salaries—for both men and women. Approximately six percent of employees required a salary adjustment, and roughly the same number of women and men were impacted. Salesforce has spent nearly $3 million dollars to eliminate statistically significant differences in pay." https://www.salesforce.com/blog/2016/03/equality-at-salesforce-equal-pay.html https://www.salesforce.com/blog/2016/03/equality-at-salesfor...
- srslack 8y ago
  It's described as anti-feminist by some critics, namely the critics who are being disingenuous in their use of statistics lacking proper controls, or outright lying or misrepresenting what the statistics mean. It's not the brand of feminism they identify with, but it's still feminism. Perhaps "proven" wasn't the best word for the parent, you can't ever prove a negative, but considering the wage gap vanishes to less than several cents with proper controls in every serious study, even those done by "pro-feminist" organizations that you claim would be objective[1], it's simply a myth. Objectively, a gap of 4 to 7 cents may exist, but also may just need further statistical controls[2]. The 70 cent gap oft quoted is entirely meant to incite emotion, social unrest, government action, and is dismissive of the progress that has been made. [1] http://history.aauw.org/files/2013/01/AAUWGraduatingtoaPayGapReport.pdf http://history.aauw.org/files/2013/01/AAUWGraduatingtoaPayGa... * It's tucked in here, there's dozens of pages going on about the pay gap, but you'll see that in several figures that they talk about the gap with controls versus without them. [2] https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/public-policy/hr-public-policy-issues/Documents/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/public-policy/hr-public-policy... * "Although additional research in this area is clearly needed, this study leads to the unambiguous conclusion that the differences in the compensation of men and women are the result of a multitude of factors and that the raw wage gap should not be used as the basis to justify corrective action. Indeed, there may be nothing to correct. The differences in raw wages may be almost entirely the result of the individual choices being made by both male and female workers."
  - wpietri 8y ago
    It is described as antifeminist by most feminists. And by me, for what it's worth. I think you're burying a lot in "proper controls". And quoting a Bush administration official suggesting it's all about "individual choice" as if it were a neutral statement is not even vaguely giving a fair picture. Under capitalism, the whole point of market signals like wages and prices is to shape individual choice. So it's tautological to suggest that accounting for individual choice proves that there's no sexism embedded in the system. The reasonable feminist critique of approaches like this is that women don't just magically prefer part-time, family-friendly work any more than they just happened to prefer to be homemakers through most of history. In that view, we have been removing structural impediments to a fair society for centuries, and the work is not done yet.

patagonia 8y ago

Lolz

wpietri 8y ago

That is an unedited opinion piece [1] from somebody who works for an antifeminist organization [2]. If that's what you count as proof, then maybe consider you're not being objective here. [1] https://www.cjr.org/innovations/newsrooms_boost_traffic.php https://www.cjr.org/innovations/newsrooms_boost_traffic.php and also https://www.joshsteimle.com/writing/how-being-a-forbes-contributor-works.html https://www.joshsteimle.com/writing/how-being-a-forbes-contr... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Women%27s_Forum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Women%27s_Forum

malvosenior 8y ago
Can you dispute the claims made? I grabbed the first Google result but there are many. I can’t find a single piece of data that says women are paid 70% of men for the same job. Can you?
- wpietri 8y ago
  You're seriously asking me to do free research for the guy who started with an opinion and uncritically posted the first Google hit that agreed with his position? Why would that be a good use of my time?
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    I’ve already done the research, but you don’t seem to believe me so I’m telling you to go look for yourself. The “wage gap” is not a thing and it’s inevitable people are going to tell you that if you try to promote it.
    - wpietri 8y ago
      If you have done the research, then a) why did you cite an unreviewed opinion piece as your only evidence, and b) why did you ask me to do the work of disputing your claims instead of just providing the evidence? I obviously have looked and do believe it's a thing. Even individual CEOs discover it's a thing within their companies. For example, Salesforce: https://www.inc.com/marcel-schwantes/the-ceo-of-salesforce-found-out-female-employees-are-paid-less-than-men-his-response-is-a-priceless-leadership-lesson.html https://www.inc.com/marcel-schwantes/the-ceo-of-salesforce-f... If it didn't exist, it's certainly surprising that companies keep finding it internally and correcting it.
      - malvosenior 8y ago
        That's a nice bit of PR but if you look at Salesforce's old blog, you'll see there was no gender pay gap: "Our assessment showed that we needed to adjust some salaries—for both men and women. Approximately six percent of employees required a salary adjustment, and roughly the same number of women and men were impacted. Salesforce has spent nearly $3 million dollars to eliminate statistically significant differences in pay." https://www.salesforce.com/blog/2016/03/equality-at-salesforce-equal-pay.html https://www.salesforce.com/blog/2016/03/equality-at-salesfor...
srslack 8y ago
It's described as anti-feminist by some critics, namely the critics who are being disingenuous in their use of statistics lacking proper controls, or outright lying or misrepresenting what the statistics mean. It's not the brand of feminism they identify with, but it's still feminism. Perhaps "proven" wasn't the best word for the parent, you can't ever prove a negative, but considering the wage gap vanishes to less than several cents with proper controls in every serious study, even those done by "pro-feminist" organizations that you claim would be objective[1], it's simply a myth. Objectively, a gap of 4 to 7 cents may exist, but also may just need further statistical controls[2]. The 70 cent gap oft quoted is entirely meant to incite emotion, social unrest, government action, and is dismissive of the progress that has been made. [1] http://history.aauw.org/files/2013/01/AAUWGraduatingtoaPayGapReport.pdf http://history.aauw.org/files/2013/01/AAUWGraduatingtoaPayGa... * It's tucked in here, there's dozens of pages going on about the pay gap, but you'll see that in several figures that they talk about the gap with controls versus without them. [2] https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/public-policy/hr-public-policy-issues/Documents/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/public-policy/hr-public-policy... * "Although additional research in this area is clearly needed, this study leads to the unambiguous conclusion that the differences in the compensation of men and women are the result of a multitude of factors and that the raw wage gap should not be used as the basis to justify corrective action. Indeed, there may be nothing to correct. The differences in raw wages may be almost entirely the result of the individual choices being made by both male and female workers."
- wpietri 8y ago
  It is described as antifeminist by most feminists. And by me, for what it's worth. I think you're burying a lot in "proper controls". And quoting a Bush administration official suggesting it's all about "individual choice" as if it were a neutral statement is not even vaguely giving a fair picture. Under capitalism, the whole point of market signals like wages and prices is to shape individual choice. So it's tautological to suggest that accounting for individual choice proves that there's no sexism embedded in the system. The reasonable feminist critique of approaches like this is that women don't just magically prefer part-time, family-friendly work any more than they just happened to prefer to be homemakers through most of history. In that view, we have been removing structural impediments to a fair society for centuries, and the work is not done yet.