5 ms·

This seems really heavy handed. In my experience what’s valuable for men is flexibility, not some set number of weeks you have 100% off. I (as a father) went ba

This seems really heavy handed. In my experience what’s valuable for men is flexibility, not some set number of weeks you have 100% off. I (as a father) went back to work at Fivetran 4 weeks after my son was born, but at 20 hours a week. That allowed me to help my partner during the initial recovery, but also be the primary parent (with daycare) from ~4-9 months when she returned to traveling for work in consulting. Not doing any work 2 months in would have seemed wasteful, and being expected to go 100% at 7 months in would have been inconvenient for both of us. Not everyone has access to this, but I feel really grateful that I did. It seems like the best arrangement possible, at least for us.

patagonia 8y ago
“What’s valuable for men...” It begins with “Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap”. Not, what would be valuable for men. A woman who just gave birth just spent an increasingly personally costly, and completely requisite (so long as the pregnancy is wanted), nine months simply getting to the maternity leave portion of the process. I can’t immagi how a woman would perceive for men to gawk at it even being suggested they be forced to take maternity leave. If a man won’t take maternity leave the woman must and that is after the pregnancy they just sacrificed during. Given the SCOTUS hearing at the moment, for such a tone deaf comment to be on HN says all you need to know.
- lainga 8y ago
  Shades of Bergeron.
- dang 8y ago
  Could you please not up the ante like this on HN? This comment and the ones you added below take the thread into flamewar. Picking a gotcha phrase from what someone posted and giving them a smackdown leads straight to degraded discussion. Instead, please follow the site guidelines and (a) assume good faith, and (b) react to the most plausible interpretation of what someone said, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Both of those are necessary for thoughtful conversation, which is what we're trying for here. That still leaves plenty of room to disagree, and then your disagreement will be much higher-quality, be more likely to convince others, and much more likely to lead to interesting (a.k.a. unpredictable) responses. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- oconnore 8y ago
  I meant valuable in terms of what I was contributing to the family ... when I took 9 months of part-time paternity leave. I feel like you didn’t really think about what I was saying. All of this was the result of lots of planning and long discussions between the two of us about how we would take care of our son, and how this would affect each of our careers — you really don’t need to lecture me here.
  - patagonia 8y ago
    Narrowing the wage gap is not about the family. It’s about the wage gap. It’s about women getting less pay for the same work. It’s about women. Not the family. I’m not lecturing you. And I’m not a woman.
    - malvosenior 8y ago
      Except it’s been proven over and over that there is no wage gap: https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy...
      - patagonia 8y ago
        Lolz
      - wpietri 8y ago
        That is an unedited opinion piece [1] from somebody who works for an antifeminist organization [2]. If that's what you count as proof, then maybe consider you're not being objective here. [1] https://www.cjr.org/innovations/newsrooms_boost_traffic.php https://www.cjr.org/innovations/newsrooms_boost_traffic.php and also https://www.joshsteimle.com/writing/how-being-a-forbes-contributor-works.html https://www.joshsteimle.com/writing/how-being-a-forbes-contr... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Women%27s_Forum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Women%27s_Forum
        malvosenior 8y ago
Smushman 8y ago
I think the primary point of the article is that this flexible planning is not functioning as an equalizer in the workplace (Title: Want Equality? Make New Dads Stay Home...) and that it could, and should. To turn it into more direct phrasing; a woman has to take a significant chunk of time off during a pregnancy by virtue of the condition, and this has a net effect on her career. When a woman takes off for pregnancy it is known up front it is for several months, and she is also indisposed during that time (can't answer questions or take quick phone calls, because she is not able to perform at peak levels while convalescing). So an employer accounts for the loss of that duty in different ways such as shifting responsibilities. And many of these ways become a limit to career success. Imagine she is closing a large sales deal but has to leave before close due to pregnancy - so she is no longer the clear performer in that sale, as it is closed by someone else. This reduces her effectiveness on paper (becomes a detractor) due to gender differences (becomes unequal). A man has been given flexibility to give and take that same time in a way that permits some juggling of work and family supporting efforts - i.e your example case. You worked part time, she could really not do that in her case. This lets you stay active in your role (little effect on your responsibilities) when she could not.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- gumby 8y ago
  > When a woman takes off for pregnancy it is known up front it is for several months, and she is also indisposed during that time (can't answer questions or take quick phone calls, because she is not able to perform at peak levels while convalescing). So wouldn't it be ideal for the mother's partner to be able to participate 24-7 to help her recover and to help both parents bond closely with the child? And not be expected to be tugged back by ties to work? FWIW I had a lawyer who was messaging with clients from the delivery room. So not sure about your stereotype.
  - Smushman 8y ago
    My 'stereotype' is 2x real world experience. I know for a fact pregnancy is hard on the body - my experience was nearly 12hrs delivery and my wife was in the ICU for 3 days following. It took months to recover completely. In your rush to defend your personal 'stereotype'; I hope you understand that being able to message clients from the delivery room is unusual. No matter what your intent in saying this, never underestimate the serious nature of childbirth.

patagonia 8y ago

“What’s valuable for men...” It begins with “Mandatory paternity leave would help close the wage gap”. Not, what would be valuable for men. A woman who just gave birth just spent an increasingly personally costly, and completely requisite (so long as the pregnancy is wanted), nine months simply getting to the maternity leave portion of the process. I can’t immagi how a woman would perceive for men to gawk at it even being suggested they be forced to take maternity leave. If a man won’t take maternity leave the woman must and that is after the pregnancy they just sacrificed during. Given the SCOTUS hearing at the moment, for such a tone deaf comment to be on HN says all you need to know.

lainga 8y ago
Shades of Bergeron.
dang 8y ago
Could you please not up the ante like this on HN? This comment and the ones you added below take the thread into flamewar. Picking a gotcha phrase from what someone posted and giving them a smackdown leads straight to degraded discussion. Instead, please follow the site guidelines and (a) assume good faith, and (b) react to the most plausible interpretation of what someone said, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Both of those are necessary for thoughtful conversation, which is what we're trying for here. That still leaves plenty of room to disagree, and then your disagreement will be much higher-quality, be more likely to convince others, and much more likely to lead to interesting (a.k.a. unpredictable) responses. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
oconnore 8y ago
I meant valuable in terms of what I was contributing to the family ... when I took 9 months of part-time paternity leave. I feel like you didn’t really think about what I was saying. All of this was the result of lots of planning and long discussions between the two of us about how we would take care of our son, and how this would affect each of our careers — you really don’t need to lecture me here.
- patagonia 8y ago
  Narrowing the wage gap is not about the family. It’s about the wage gap. It’s about women getting less pay for the same work. It’s about women. Not the family. I’m not lecturing you. And I’m not a woman.
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    Except it’s been proven over and over that there is no wage gap: https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy...
    - patagonia 8y ago
      Lolz
    - wpietri 8y ago
      That is an unedited opinion piece [1] from somebody who works for an antifeminist organization [2]. If that's what you count as proof, then maybe consider you're not being objective here. [1] https://www.cjr.org/innovations/newsrooms_boost_traffic.php https://www.cjr.org/innovations/newsrooms_boost_traffic.php and also https://www.joshsteimle.com/writing/how-being-a-forbes-contributor-works.html https://www.joshsteimle.com/writing/how-being-a-forbes-contr... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Women%27s_Forum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Women%27s_Forum
      - malvosenior 8y ago

Smushman 8y ago

I think the primary point of the article is that this flexible planning is not functioning as an equalizer in the workplace (Title: Want Equality? Make New Dads Stay Home...) and that it could, and should. To turn it into more direct phrasing; a woman has to take a significant chunk of time off during a pregnancy by virtue of the condition, and this has a net effect on her career. When a woman takes off for pregnancy it is known up front it is for several months, and she is also indisposed during that time (can't answer questions or take quick phone calls, because she is not able to perform at peak levels while convalescing). So an employer accounts for the loss of that duty in different ways such as shifting responsibilities. And many of these ways become a limit to career success. Imagine she is closing a large sales deal but has to leave before close due to pregnancy - so she is no longer the clear performer in that sale, as it is closed by someone else. This reduces her effectiveness on paper (becomes a detractor) due to gender differences (becomes unequal). A man has been given flexibility to give and take that same time in a way that permits some juggling of work and family supporting efforts - i.e your example case. You worked part time, she could really not do that in her case. This lets you stay active in your role (little effect on your responsibilities) when she could not.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
gumby 8y ago
> When a woman takes off for pregnancy it is known up front it is for several months, and she is also indisposed during that time (can't answer questions or take quick phone calls, because she is not able to perform at peak levels while convalescing). So wouldn't it be ideal for the mother's partner to be able to participate 24-7 to help her recover and to help both parents bond closely with the child? And not be expected to be tugged back by ties to work? FWIW I had a lawyer who was messaging with clients from the delivery room. So not sure about your stereotype.
- Smushman 8y ago
  My 'stereotype' is 2x real world experience. I know for a fact pregnancy is hard on the body - my experience was nearly 12hrs delivery and my wife was in the ICU for 3 days following. It took months to recover completely. In your rush to defend your personal 'stereotype'; I hope you understand that being able to message clients from the delivery room is unusual. No matter what your intent in saying this, never underestimate the serious nature of childbirth.