4 ms·

>Why do there seem to be more examples of rapidly-completed major projects in the past than the present? I'm no historian so this is probably misguided, but I

>Why do there seem to be more examples of rapidly-completed major projects in the past than the present? I'm no historian so this is probably misguided, but I feel like this is an indicator for a society on the decline. Corruption is increasingly rampant in both the public and private sectors, and money is being siphoned off at every step. If we don't figure out how to fix it, mounting costs and inefficiencies could put and end to our era prosperity soon. We've allocated power to people interested in screwing others for short-term (e.g. their lifetime) gains. Rah rah doom and gloom. >Could there be more good blogs? >Are there incentive structure tweaks that yield more good blogging? The missing validation mechanisms like Facebook likes the author mentioned are largely filled by link aggregators. Posts on HN and Reddit have a score which acts as a similar dopamine drip to likes. I feel validated and encouraged to write more when my blog generates discussion around the net (though often with an equal sum of embarassment when my flames make it to my colleague's desks). >Why are programming environments still so primitive? This guy should try working with plan9 and acme for a few months. Author, if you're reading these comments, you should install 9front, spend a weekend grokking it and becoming comfortable in a workflow there, then set up a Linux VM with vmx(3) and a 9P mount to your host system to get your Real Work done while continuing to learn about the plan9 model. Be prepared for your entire workflow to be turned on its head and to have to find creative ways out of your problems. Maybe today is one of those days where you change your life in a big way :)

nigelcleland 8y ago
RE rapidly completed projects A primary driver of the 'slowness' is a major focus upon safety in the workplace. Take a look back at the death rates per 1000 workers for some of the historical projects that people often like to point to and then look at a modern project. The second element is that these safety elements are often enforced by regulation. For example, look at how much extra scaffolding is in use today during construction (which used to be ladders). To directly look at corruption, this is an issue but not in a direct way. Corruption happens through the 'contractor ladder' where the primary contractor has a subcontractor who has a subcontractor who has a subcontractor. Repeat ad infinitum. One of the primary reasons for this is the challenges in maintaining a large enough workflow to keep a standing workforce employed. It's difficult to justify paying expensive construction workers and engineers when they're not actually building anything. Finally, tendering protocols are often quite naive and have been implemented to make something "least cost". This has led to a nightmare scenario of companies underquoting in order to win a tender, secure in the knowledge that a government will not leave a project half finished. To remedy this better contracts are required, for example, you can offer a recurring revenue stream (e.g. 20-30 years) to a company in return for a particular project. On the other hand, this can often lead to poorly build projects that last exactly 30 years.
- JProthero 8y ago
  The construction and infrastructure boom in China over the past few decades suggests major projects can still be completed rapidly, even in spite of widespread corruption. Political will can be an important driving force for pushing through major projects, but the most impressive feats of engineering are seen when there is substantial pent-up demand in an economy that can suddenly be supplied, usually due to social or technological change. I think major projects could still be completed quickly in developed economies if the incentives were to align in the right way, but we don't see it often because the low-hanging fruit has already been picked. India and Africa are probably the places to look to for rapidly completed major projects over the next few decades, and perhaps we could see significant industrial development in space at some point if the economics works out.
  - nigelcleland 8y ago
    Yes, and how many people have died during the construction and infrastructure boom in China/India/Africa. They're faster because they aren't as safety focused. For example: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2000/09/07/chinese-workers-killed-at-three-gorges-dam/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2000/09/07/c... How much is unreported? This isn't to say this doesn't happen in western countries but it is less common. A large number of deaths was also associated with the Qatar world cup for example. Look at the public reports of engineering and manufacturing companies. How many of them have a "target zero" approach to safety and report the TIFR as a key KPI? I've known executives in engineering organisations to be fired for persistent safety breaches making them substantially more risk averse. This all costs more money and takes more time and I would posit that if China/India/Africa become wealthier and more individualistic then their construction rates would also slow.
evgen 8y ago
> Corruption is increasingly rampant in both the public and private sectors, and money is being siphoned off at every step. This is utter bullshit when it comes to the sort of major public infrastructure projects hinted at in the original post. In fact, what slows things down significantly is the fact that there are so many controls in place to reduce and eliminate this corruption. Contracts that could have been settled with a fat envelope to the brother-in-law of the county commissioner are now handled in a much more open and transparent process. Corrupt profits that could be skimmed by using sub-standard materials are now prevented by layer upon layer of inspection and sourcing paperwork (which all increases cost.) Projects that could once move quickly because unions were weak and safety regulations were non-existent, to the point where contractors could simply throw human lives at the problem until it was solved, now move at a slower pace and with far fewer deaths as a result. Infrastructure may take more time and cost more, but the cost in lives during construction and after the project is completed are much lower.
- raintrees 8y ago
  I would think that potential litigation might be a determining factor, at least in the USA.
- humanrebar 8y ago
  "Corruption" is word with multiple definitions. It can mean underhanded. In that case it's a sort of shorthand for "moral corruption". It indicates the person or system is far from a moral ideal. But, generally speaking, corruption can just indicate something that has deviated from its original use. A corrupted file on a computer does not meet its intended purpose, at least not fully. A corrupt organization, likewise, could be 100% honest in all its dealings (1) and fail to meet its intended purpose. If government agencies partnering with private contractors cannot reasonably build the project all of them exist to build, then there is some sort of corruption going on. It's possible there is graft or underhandedness, but it's also possible that there is emergent dysfunction inhibiting their ability to execute. That is also corruption. (1) That is, the organization is not morally or ethically corrupt.
drawnwren 8y ago
Do you have any good starting points for p9? I have always wanted to check it out, but man is the documentation poor
- Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
  http://fqa.9front.org/ http://fqa.9front.org/ Just install it and try to work normally, and when you find something hard you should research the specific thing you want to do.
garfieldnate 8y ago
Could you explain more about plan9 and acme and why they are amazing? I've never heard of them.
- Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
  I could go on for hours. Just try it yourself, it's free.

nigelcleland 8y ago

RE rapidly completed projects A primary driver of the 'slowness' is a major focus upon safety in the workplace. Take a look back at the death rates per 1000 workers for some of the historical projects that people often like to point to and then look at a modern project. The second element is that these safety elements are often enforced by regulation. For example, look at how much extra scaffolding is in use today during construction (which used to be ladders). To directly look at corruption, this is an issue but not in a direct way. Corruption happens through the 'contractor ladder' where the primary contractor has a subcontractor who has a subcontractor who has a subcontractor. Repeat ad infinitum. One of the primary reasons for this is the challenges in maintaining a large enough workflow to keep a standing workforce employed. It's difficult to justify paying expensive construction workers and engineers when they're not actually building anything. Finally, tendering protocols are often quite naive and have been implemented to make something "least cost". This has led to a nightmare scenario of companies underquoting in order to win a tender, secure in the knowledge that a government will not leave a project half finished. To remedy this better contracts are required, for example, you can offer a recurring revenue stream (e.g. 20-30 years) to a company in return for a particular project. On the other hand, this can often lead to poorly build projects that last exactly 30 years.

JProthero 8y ago
The construction and infrastructure boom in China over the past few decades suggests major projects can still be completed rapidly, even in spite of widespread corruption. Political will can be an important driving force for pushing through major projects, but the most impressive feats of engineering are seen when there is substantial pent-up demand in an economy that can suddenly be supplied, usually due to social or technological change. I think major projects could still be completed quickly in developed economies if the incentives were to align in the right way, but we don't see it often because the low-hanging fruit has already been picked. India and Africa are probably the places to look to for rapidly completed major projects over the next few decades, and perhaps we could see significant industrial development in space at some point if the economics works out.
- nigelcleland 8y ago
  Yes, and how many people have died during the construction and infrastructure boom in China/India/Africa. They're faster because they aren't as safety focused. For example: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2000/09/07/chinese-workers-killed-at-three-gorges-dam/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2000/09/07/c... How much is unreported? This isn't to say this doesn't happen in western countries but it is less common. A large number of deaths was also associated with the Qatar world cup for example. Look at the public reports of engineering and manufacturing companies. How many of them have a "target zero" approach to safety and report the TIFR as a key KPI? I've known executives in engineering organisations to be fired for persistent safety breaches making them substantially more risk averse. This all costs more money and takes more time and I would posit that if China/India/Africa become wealthier and more individualistic then their construction rates would also slow.

evgen 8y ago

> Corruption is increasingly rampant in both the public and private sectors, and money is being siphoned off at every step. This is utter bullshit when it comes to the sort of major public infrastructure projects hinted at in the original post. In fact, what slows things down significantly is the fact that there are so many controls in place to reduce and eliminate this corruption. Contracts that could have been settled with a fat envelope to the brother-in-law of the county commissioner are now handled in a much more open and transparent process. Corrupt profits that could be skimmed by using sub-standard materials are now prevented by layer upon layer of inspection and sourcing paperwork (which all increases cost.) Projects that could once move quickly because unions were weak and safety regulations were non-existent, to the point where contractors could simply throw human lives at the problem until it was solved, now move at a slower pace and with far fewer deaths as a result. Infrastructure may take more time and cost more, but the cost in lives during construction and after the project is completed are much lower.

raintrees 8y ago
I would think that potential litigation might be a determining factor, at least in the USA.
humanrebar 8y ago
"Corruption" is word with multiple definitions. It can mean underhanded. In that case it's a sort of shorthand for "moral corruption". It indicates the person or system is far from a moral ideal. But, generally speaking, corruption can just indicate something that has deviated from its original use. A corrupted file on a computer does not meet its intended purpose, at least not fully. A corrupt organization, likewise, could be 100% honest in all its dealings (1) and fail to meet its intended purpose. If government agencies partnering with private contractors cannot reasonably build the project all of them exist to build, then there is some sort of corruption going on. It's possible there is graft or underhandedness, but it's also possible that there is emergent dysfunction inhibiting their ability to execute. That is also corruption. (1) That is, the organization is not morally or ethically corrupt.

drawnwren 8y ago

Do you have any good starting points for p9? I have always wanted to check it out, but man is the documentation poor

Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
http://fqa.9front.org/ http://fqa.9front.org/ Just install it and try to work normally, and when you find something hard you should research the specific thing you want to do.

garfieldnate 8y ago

Could you explain more about plan9 and acme and why they are amazing? I've never heard of them.

Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
I could go on for hours. Just try it yourself, it's free.