4 ms·

... I think the ethical responsibility here is with the trigger-pullers and their chain of command; not the phone-finders.

justtopost 8y ago
Its both. Absolving yourself of hunting jews for nazis because you didnt personally pull the trigger is morally and ethically bankrupt. Your line of thinking is exactly the problem.
- leetcrew 8y ago
  how many levels of indirection does it take before you are no longer "morally and ethically bankrupt"? is the janitor at CIA partially responsible for extrajudicial killings? is it morally bankrupt to pay federal income tax, a portion of which will finance the killing machines?
  - mmirate 8y ago
    > is it morally bankrupt to pay federal income tax, a portion of which will finance the killing machines? To be fair, it could easily be said that we all engage in the morally bankrupt act of voting for politicians whose foreign policy ideals aren't as well-thought-out as Ron Paul's.
  - eeZah7Ux 8y ago
    > is the janitor at CIA partially responsible for extrajudicial killings? Yes, obviously to a lower extent. > is it morally bankrupt to pay federal income tax, a portion of which will finance the killing machines? False dichotomy. Moral responsibility is not boolean. We take a hundreds of small decisions every day that have social implications. Obviously choosing to live, work, and pay taxes in countries with governments with a history of violence has moral implications.
    - mmirate 8y ago
      If you look back far enough, nearly every on-land government still extant today has a history of violence; be it that they conquered the land they inhabit, that they invaded their neighbors so that they might not be themselves invaded, that they were established due to their predecessors being violently overthrown, and so on. Governments really suck.
- mmirate 8y ago
  I said "and their chain of command". Yes, I get that in addition to the trigger-puller following an illegal order, someone would have to have provided that order - and at worst, the buck stops with the Joint Chiefs and the President. Unless this blog-post's author is a serious multitasker, I highly doubt that he/she was anywhere in that chain-of-command. Or do you mean to insinuate that - for instance - if the Navy had been using OpenBSD to run their carriers' computers, then that makes Theo de Raadt responsible for everything the Navy does that you think is bad? (And of course, there's also the facts that our military aren't the Nazi-led Wehrmacht and the terrorists aren't Jews ... but by Godwin, that's the darnedest angle to take here.)

justtopost 8y ago

Its both. Absolving yourself of hunting jews for nazis because you didnt personally pull the trigger is morally and ethically bankrupt. Your line of thinking is exactly the problem.

leetcrew 8y ago
how many levels of indirection does it take before you are no longer "morally and ethically bankrupt"? is the janitor at CIA partially responsible for extrajudicial killings? is it morally bankrupt to pay federal income tax, a portion of which will finance the killing machines?
- mmirate 8y ago
  > is it morally bankrupt to pay federal income tax, a portion of which will finance the killing machines? To be fair, it could easily be said that we all engage in the morally bankrupt act of voting for politicians whose foreign policy ideals aren't as well-thought-out as Ron Paul's.
- eeZah7Ux 8y ago
  > is the janitor at CIA partially responsible for extrajudicial killings? Yes, obviously to a lower extent. > is it morally bankrupt to pay federal income tax, a portion of which will finance the killing machines? False dichotomy. Moral responsibility is not boolean. We take a hundreds of small decisions every day that have social implications. Obviously choosing to live, work, and pay taxes in countries with governments with a history of violence has moral implications.
  - mmirate 8y ago
    If you look back far enough, nearly every on-land government still extant today has a history of violence; be it that they conquered the land they inhabit, that they invaded their neighbors so that they might not be themselves invaded, that they were established due to their predecessors being violently overthrown, and so on. Governments really suck.
mmirate 8y ago
I said "and their chain of command". Yes, I get that in addition to the trigger-puller following an illegal order, someone would have to have provided that order - and at worst, the buck stops with the Joint Chiefs and the President. Unless this blog-post's author is a serious multitasker, I highly doubt that he/she was anywhere in that chain-of-command. Or do you mean to insinuate that - for instance - if the Navy had been using OpenBSD to run their carriers' computers, then that makes Theo de Raadt responsible for everything the Navy does that you think is bad? (And of course, there's also the facts that our military aren't the Nazi-led Wehrmacht and the terrorists aren't Jews ... but by Godwin, that's the darnedest angle to take here.)