4 ms·

I am in a union. We do get pressure from administration. They can’t force me to use a given website but pressure does exist. You’ve made a lot of assumptions

by skh 8y ago

I am in a union. We do get pressure from administration. They can’t force me to use a given website but pressure does exist. You’ve made a lot of assumptions about me and what happens in departments. I’ve been in the job for 18 years and my anecdotal experience differs from your perception. I’m guessing you aren’t employed as a faculty member at a college. I don’t know if this is the case but your assertions feel like someone who is speaking about things they peripherally understand. Your first paragraph is just plain wrong. There have been a number of states that have legally mandated that there can be no more than one precollege level math course before being allowed to take college algebra. This is an example of effectively being told what to do whilst maintaining the veneer of faculty control. I do not think you really understand the situation. You made a comment about the rest of the world not selling out. You really think this? Google engineers haven’t sold out so to speak? Soldiers transporting people to secret prisons to be tortured haven’t sold out? When you use such hyperbole it’s hard not to read into your words anger and bitterness. It diminishes the quality of your comment. I reiterate, the forces at play are not as simplistic as you appear to think. And the solution definitely isn’t as simplistic as the one you gave.

thaumasiotes 8y ago
> There have been a number of states that have legally mandated that there can be no more than one precollege level math course before being allowed to take college algebra. This seems... unlikely. By "college algebra", do you mean "a group is a structure with the following properties", or "x is called a variable"?
- skh 8y ago
  In the United States college algebra is a course that covers things like the quadratic formula, solving basic exponential equations and things like that.
  - thaumasiotes 8y ago
    That's not true "in the United States". It's a euphemistic choice by colleges that are ashamed to say "remedial algebra". The same course is called "algebra" when you take it in middle school, "algebra" when you take it in high school, and "college algebra" (apparently) when you take it as a college graduation requirement. On the other hand, colleges do offer a different course called "algebra", which introduces group theory and is nothing like grade school algebra. >> there can be no more than one precollege level math course before being allowed to take college algebra The way you've defined "college algebra", it is a precollege level math course.
    - skh 8y ago
      Well, I teach college algebra a lot and I teach it in the United States. I’m telling you what that term means in the United States. I don’t know what it means outside of the United States. Beginning Algebra and Intermmediate Algebra are the names for courses that cover basic algebraic topics at the pre college level. Do you think I’m lying or otherwise wrong? Go to the American version of Amazon.com and search for college algebra textbooks. Look at the table of contents and you’ll see that my description is accurate. In the United States courses that teach basic ring theory and group theory are usually called Modern Algebra or Abstract Algebra. You appear to have an axe to grind. Your apparent anger is misplaced. We are just discussing the names of things and not on the merit of those things.
      - thaumasiotes 8y ago
        What do you think the difference in curriculum is between "college algebra" and "remedial algebra"? Why do you believe I'm outside the United States? You don't appear to be qualified to speak for "the United States". > We are just discussing the names of things and not on the merit of those things. The name "college algebra" is a pretty transparent attempt to attribute spurious merit to the course. Imagine you see a course catalog offering "physics" and "college physics". Which one would you assume is the college-level course?
        skh 8y ago
Someone1234 8y ago
> I am in a union. And yet you're posting on here about administration under paying you and forcing you to teach using certain materials? Seems like that would be issues to raise with the union. > You’ve made a lot of assumptions about me and what happens in departments. You told us what happens. I responded to what you yourself had to say, and those are "assumptions?" Seems like a trap, you provide anecdotes then attack those that criticise your own anecdotes for making assumptions? If you didn't want to discuss your situation then why raise it? And if we don't have the full picture isn't that your fault? > I’m guessing you aren’t employed as a faculty member at a college. I don’t know if this is the case but your assertions feel like someone who is speaking about things they peripherally understand. Weren't you just barating me for making assumptions? Yours are wrong, very wrong. My perception is from working in a University and seeing what goes on, seeing my colleagues sell out the students for fairly measly personal gains. > You really think this? I've worked in academia within the US and outside of. So, yes I think this. This type of exploitative publishing doesn't gain traction in e.g. Europe not because it doesn't have benefits to professors (it does) but because they view it as immoral to push their students under a bus to gain for themselves. > I reiterate, the forces at play are not as simplistic as you appear to think. And the solution definitely isn’t as simplistic as the one you gave. I didn't provide a solution. I suggested that students and the public at large start criticizing the gatekeepers for this issue rather than a scapegoat. At the very least they should feel bad about their poor behaviour.
- skh 8y ago
  I didn’t berate you. Of course I made assumptions. I specifically said so. Where I did make assumptions I mentioned that this was a guess on my part. From my reading of what you wrote your assumptions are embedded winthin your assertions without any acknowledgement that this is what you are doing. There’s a difference. > You really think this? I've worked in academia within the US and outside of. So, yes I think this. You didn’t understand what my rhetorical question was about. It was asking if you really think the whole rest of the world hasn’t sold out. There are lots of examples of people selling out outside of academia and even within European academia. I’m not seeking to change your mind. You have what appears to be a rigid view on how American faculty view textbooks. I suggest that your view is based on limited experience - as is mine - and that others reading this exchange consider that topics concerning something as large as the number of faculty and departments in the U.S. generally can’t be reduced to, “It’s because of (insert simple observation).” Your comment about unions shows you really don’t understand the issues that affect a large portion of the American academy. For one thing over 50% of courses are taught by adjuncts, and instructors whose employment is at the whim of administration. They are not in a position to withstand administrative pressures. Unions have nowhere near the pricing power on labor you seem to believe. Generally decisions are made by individuals who are not any more or less moral than others. Decisions get made because of forces at play. Such is my opinion. While I don’t like the tone of your posts and don’t agree with many of your assertions let me end by saying that I agree with the goal. Our goals appear aligned. I never use paid materials in my courses.

by skh 8y ago

thaumasiotes 8y ago

> There have been a number of states that have legally mandated that there can be no more than one precollege level math course before being allowed to take college algebra. This seems... unlikely. By "college algebra", do you mean "a group is a structure with the following properties", or "x is called a variable"?

skh 8y ago
In the United States college algebra is a course that covers things like the quadratic formula, solving basic exponential equations and things like that.
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  That's not true "in the United States". It's a euphemistic choice by colleges that are ashamed to say "remedial algebra". The same course is called "algebra" when you take it in middle school, "algebra" when you take it in high school, and "college algebra" (apparently) when you take it as a college graduation requirement. On the other hand, colleges do offer a different course called "algebra", which introduces group theory and is nothing like grade school algebra. >> there can be no more than one precollege level math course before being allowed to take college algebra The way you've defined "college algebra", it is a precollege level math course.
  - skh 8y ago
    Well, I teach college algebra a lot and I teach it in the United States. I’m telling you what that term means in the United States. I don’t know what it means outside of the United States. Beginning Algebra and Intermmediate Algebra are the names for courses that cover basic algebraic topics at the pre college level. Do you think I’m lying or otherwise wrong? Go to the American version of Amazon.com and search for college algebra textbooks. Look at the table of contents and you’ll see that my description is accurate. In the United States courses that teach basic ring theory and group theory are usually called Modern Algebra or Abstract Algebra. You appear to have an axe to grind. Your apparent anger is misplaced. We are just discussing the names of things and not on the merit of those things.
    - thaumasiotes 8y ago
      What do you think the difference in curriculum is between "college algebra" and "remedial algebra"? Why do you believe I'm outside the United States? You don't appear to be qualified to speak for "the United States". > We are just discussing the names of things and not on the merit of those things. The name "college algebra" is a pretty transparent attempt to attribute spurious merit to the course. Imagine you see a course catalog offering "physics" and "college physics". Which one would you assume is the college-level course?
      - skh 8y ago

Someone1234 8y ago

> I am in a union. And yet you're posting on here about administration under paying you and forcing you to teach using certain materials? Seems like that would be issues to raise with the union. > You’ve made a lot of assumptions about me and what happens in departments. You told us what happens. I responded to what you yourself had to say, and those are "assumptions?" Seems like a trap, you provide anecdotes then attack those that criticise your own anecdotes for making assumptions? If you didn't want to discuss your situation then why raise it? And if we don't have the full picture isn't that your fault? > I’m guessing you aren’t employed as a faculty member at a college. I don’t know if this is the case but your assertions feel like someone who is speaking about things they peripherally understand. Weren't you just barating me for making assumptions? Yours are wrong, very wrong. My perception is from working in a University and seeing what goes on, seeing my colleagues sell out the students for fairly measly personal gains. > You really think this? I've worked in academia within the US and outside of. So, yes I think this. This type of exploitative publishing doesn't gain traction in e.g. Europe not because it doesn't have benefits to professors (it does) but because they view it as immoral to push their students under a bus to gain for themselves. > I reiterate, the forces at play are not as simplistic as you appear to think. And the solution definitely isn’t as simplistic as the one you gave. I didn't provide a solution. I suggested that students and the public at large start criticizing the gatekeepers for this issue rather than a scapegoat. At the very least they should feel bad about their poor behaviour.

skh 8y ago
I didn’t berate you. Of course I made assumptions. I specifically said so. Where I did make assumptions I mentioned that this was a guess on my part. From my reading of what you wrote your assumptions are embedded winthin your assertions without any acknowledgement that this is what you are doing. There’s a difference. > You really think this? I've worked in academia within the US and outside of. So, yes I think this. You didn’t understand what my rhetorical question was about. It was asking if you really think the whole rest of the world hasn’t sold out. There are lots of examples of people selling out outside of academia and even within European academia. I’m not seeking to change your mind. You have what appears to be a rigid view on how American faculty view textbooks. I suggest that your view is based on limited experience - as is mine - and that others reading this exchange consider that topics concerning something as large as the number of faculty and departments in the U.S. generally can’t be reduced to, “It’s because of (insert simple observation).” Your comment about unions shows you really don’t understand the issues that affect a large portion of the American academy. For one thing over 50% of courses are taught by adjuncts, and instructors whose employment is at the whim of administration. They are not in a position to withstand administrative pressures. Unions have nowhere near the pricing power on labor you seem to believe. Generally decisions are made by individuals who are not any more or less moral than others. Decisions get made because of forces at play. Such is my opinion. While I don’t like the tone of your posts and don’t agree with many of your assertions let me end by saying that I agree with the goal. Our goals appear aligned. I never use paid materials in my courses.