11 ms·

E-Ink Monitors: Ready for Prime Time?

90 points by toymachine 8y ago

bruceb 8y ago
I posted to ask last year asking why mid size and larger E-ink devices were so expensive relative to 6inch readers. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15787026 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15787026 might be of interested to some.
- DrJaws 8y ago
  The main reason is production costs. A single 13" screen is being sold to manufacturers for over 350.
coder543 8y ago
> It turns out that staring at back-lit computer monitors for 40+ hours a week might not be the best thing for you. Source? Light is still hitting your retinas, whether it comes from reflection or from a backlight. I really enjoy E-Ink displays, but not because of perceived health benefits from reflected light. I enjoy how readable they are under sunlight, how they consume zero energy to show a static image, and how this enables them to always show content even if the device has no power. It's simply not necessary to use unsourced health claims to justify a great technology like E-Ink.
- thomas 8y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17724995 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17724995 Was a good thread
  - fermienrico 8y ago
    I don't see anything related to reflectivity vs. backlight illumination. Most of the discussion is around the wavelength of light (blue) and its effects.
    - coder543 8y ago
      does light have any other intrinsic properties besides spectrum/wavelengths and intensity (EDIT: properties that vary based on the light source alone)? It doesn't matter if it came from a backlight or reflection, the electromagnetic waves are still electromagnetic waves. If the color spectrum is unpleasant, it's possible to use Night Shift or other features to shift the spectrum. If the intensity is unpleasant, just turn down the brightness.
      - romed 8y ago
        The problem is LCDs have much worse objective performance as the backlight diminishes. E-Ink has tragically bad contrast of 15:1, but it maintains that contrast ratio in low lighting conditions. LCD panels rely on high brightness for their contrast. At very low brightness, even the best LCD display has poor contrast. OLED displays have a different problem; they have so much noise at low brightness that the image falls apart. Still, I think a monochrome OLED display is what the person who wrote this article actually wants. It would have better performance in every respect to E-Ink, and it doesn't sound like their application requires E-Ink's low power.
        coder543 8y ago
        I have used both LCD and OLED smartphone displays at incredibly low brightness in pitch black rooms for a long time, and I have to completely disagree. On the other hand, E-Ink is amazing in sunlight, where smartphone displays can't get sufficiently bright.
        singularity2001 8y ago
        Which smartphone displays can you set to 'incredibly low brightness'? all iPhones and Androids I've used are like bright flashlights when the lights are switched off.
        coder543 8y ago
        It's all relative. I don't own a single flashlight that can be set dimmer (or anywhere close to as dim) as my iPhone XS Max is at minimum brightness on a white page. If the XS Max is showing mostly-dark content, the amount of light emitted is really tiny at minimum brightness because of that OLED display. On the various Android devices I've owned, I've used a useful app called Screen Filter that adds a translucent layer on top of all apps to dim the screen beyond the artificial manufacturer-imposed minimum brightness, which worked especially well on OLED Android phones, but also LCDs worked fine too.
  - djsumdog 8y ago
    Yea I remember that discussion. I'm not sure if I'm entirely convinced, but there are so many studies in progress looking at this that I decided to try running Redshift on my desktop again. I will say, it does seem to make it easier to fall asleep at night.
- deleted 8y ago
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- cimmanom 8y ago
  You get a LOT more light from a backlight than from reflection, at least in indoor conditions.
  - mrob 8y ago
    I can turn my monitor down so it's dimmer than a sheet of white paper on my desk. If I aim a desk lamp directly at the paper I can make it brighter than the monitor on full brightness. There's no standard brightness for monitor or paper.
    - cimmanom 8y ago
      But can you actually READ your monitor when it’s dimmer than a sheet of paper in ambient light?
      - coder543 8y ago
        why does it have to be dimmer than ambient?
      - mrob 8y ago
        If the contrast of the text is high enough, yes. For many websites this means custom CSS to disable the gray font color, but I do that anyway.
      - pmontra 8y ago
        Not much. I can't read those trendy gray on white web sites too.
    - InclinedPlane 8y ago
      What you're missing is that your eyes adjust the amount of light they let in and their sensitivity relative to ambient light, which can often result in a monitor having "inappropriate" brightness levels relative to that level. Nobody on the planet spends all day constantly adjusting their monitors' brightness and contrast levels, even assuming that it was possible to reach the appropriate levels in all ambient lighting conditions within the range of those controls (hint: it's not). On the other hand, passive displays (books, e-ink) by their nature inherently match ambient lighting conditions, because they simply reflect ambient light. This is the equivalent of a monitor with a much wider range of contrast and brightness levels equipped with an automatic adaptive adjustment with sub-nanosecond response times, something that simply does not exist with present technology. So yes, in theory a monitor could potentially match a passive display in terms of reducing eye strain and tiredness but in practice it is beyond the state of the art for now.
- xkcd-sucks 8y ago
  The mammalian visual system has been the predominant model system used in developmental neurobiology research for the past fiftyish years. It's generally known at this point that visual circuits pattern themselves according to input, and that visual systems fed from a constrained input domain lose the ability to meaningfully represent real-world input. We also know that computer displays show a very restricted subset of perceptual info, and also don't relate to other sensory modalities (like proprioception of head/eye movements to look at peripheral objects) which are important for maintaining an integrated environmental map. So, it's more reasonable to assume that looking at monitors is harmful than helpful, especially at a young age (or following a stroke, taking certain HDAC6 inhibitors or other things that increase "neural plasticity"). The common knowledge of developmental neurobiology has advanced to the point where the claim "closer to natural ISN'T better for normal development" is one which requires proof. Now, does this have any meaningful bearing on e-ink displays? The contrast ratio is closer to stuff you get in the natural world, but apart from that it's still a monitor.
  - hnuser1234 8y ago
    Everything you said sounds really impressive, but >visual systems fed from a constrained input domain lose the ability to meaningfully represent real-world input. Seems to imply that looking at a computer monitor for too much of your life means you won't be able to see the real world, or not "see it right", whatever that means. The only example of that I've seen is some people (kids, presumably) commenting on the Nvidia RTX demo videos that the non-raytraced versions, which lack real world lighting dynamics, look "better" than the raytraced ones, which were, to me at least, obviously closer to physically realistic, representative images. Now, whether they were saying that because their eyes have literally programmed themselves for cheaply rendered video game worlds, or because they didn't want to face spending the asking price of the RTX hardware, is up to the reader.
    - Roritharr 8y ago
      To add an anecdote from my adolescence: When I was 12-15 I spent pretty much all my time indoors, playing PC games or learning how to code. I realized I hadn't visited the river I was living basically next to for atleast two years when I had to pick something up at a booth next to it. I realized there that I found the water in Star Wars Galaxies much more "realistic" than the actual river flowing by. This freaked me out so much that I took a week off of gaming and went to take walks for a week.
- theclaw 8y ago
  It's ironic that this advice is written on a website with an 0xFFFFFF brilliant white background. Edit: thank you, Dark Reader[0] [0]https://darkreader.org/ https://darkreader.org/
- fouc 8y ago
  I need to wear glasses with my retina display, but not with my e-ink reader. The eyes are definitely doing more work when looking at a backlit display for whatever reason.
  - jrockway 8y ago
    Same distance, same text size, and same font?
    - coder543 8y ago
      also, same color scheme? I've seen some studies that show it's harder for people with certain vision issues to focus on text that's white text on a black background than it is for them to focus on black text on a white background, so.. if they're trying to read on a dark theme on their phone, that could be noticeably different from using their E-Ink screen, which is almost certainly using a light theme.
      - fouc 8y ago
        That would definitely be a good experiment to try. I would have to try a light black on light grey to match the kindle.
gambler 8y ago
I'd pay a lot of money for a decent E Ink monitor. I don't need color or high refresh rate. I do need it to "just work", be reliable and relatively big. The second step would be software support so that I could leave images on the screen when the computer is off. Stuff mentioned in the article is interesting, but it sounds like the quality is quite bad for all 3.
- pasbesoin 8y ago
  There's been recent mention of the... Onyx Boox Max2, as Google refreshes my memory. It can be used as a display via a simple HDMI connection. I read a few articles, and I'd like to try one, but I haven't convinced myself to put down $800 . Here's a googled link that my browser history says I've visited before: https://goodereader.com/blog/electronic-readers/onyx-boox-max2-pro-13-3-inch-e-reader-review https://goodereader.com/blog/electronic-readers/onyx-boox-ma... P.S. As I asked at the time, does anyone know the/a source for the panel? Although I guess the custom firmware and buttoned down access to same, may make getting a raw panel a non-starter. P.P.S. Duh. OP article mentions it. Anyway... still wondering where the panel comes from.
  - yorwba 8y ago
    I searched for a teardown, but only found one of the Dasung Paperlike Pro https://kevzettler.com/2018/02/11/dasung-paperlike-pro-teardown https://kevzettler.com/2018/02/11/dasung-paperlike-pro-teard... , but which helpfully links to a source for the panel. The biggest display they have seems to be a 42" monochrome display for $2000 https://shopkits.eink.com/product-category/e-ink-display-modules/15/ https://shopkits.eink.com/product-category/e-ink-display-mod...
    - pasbesoin 8y ago
      Thank you. At a first glance, that is an interesting/intriguing site. Note that it's another $500 for the controller module they recommend. (I know, I was asking after the Max2's raw panel. But in considering making one of the ones on this site work.) There's also a listing for a 31.2" panel capable of 4096 colors (per the description). $2300.
frou_dh 8y ago
It's always going to be dodgy until the graphical OS you're running is aware of what eInk is, and adapts the UI toolkit and general rendering to play to eInk's strengths.
- adrianmonk 8y ago
  This might be one of those situations where things have to move forward imperfectly. First some people get eInk monitors, then OS developers see that there are at least some real users and some concrete reason to believe there's a payoff in supporting them. Then decent software support will encourage more people to get eInk monitors, and that will encourage OS developers to turn decent software support into good software support. A similar thing happened with SSDs. At first operating systems weren't TRIM-aware, but people used SSDs anyway. IIRC, first device drivers got support to send the TRIM command, then later filesystems got the ability to send the TRIM command automatically, then flash-oriented filesystems were built and went into wide(r) use.
  - rubicon33 8y ago
    My worry is that E-Ink Monitors will never reach the "minimum quality" point at which they are adopted by a sufficient number of people to get the ball rolling. I don't suffer from any medical reason to use one, but, I would absolutely purchase one this second (any pay a lot for it) if it worked well. Unfortunately, what I've seen so far from the Dasung and the Onyx, isn't worth $800. I just hope these companies have enough runway to continue improving the product such that early adopters like myself, will jump in.
    - deleted 8y ago
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    - bryanrasmussen 8y ago
      What will cause it to be worth $800?
- ahakki 8y ago
  Maybe just setting Windows into one of it’s High Contrast Settings would help[0]. I’m sure MacOS offers a similar feature. [0]http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=windows+10+high+contrast http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=windows+10+high+contrast
utopcell 8y ago
Seems like the Lenovo Yoga Book C930 would do the trick.
gbraad 8y ago
I have the MaxCarta and Max2. I use the older model using network connectivity, and the Max2 using HDMI. It is really a decent experience... just the refresh rate is slow. I use it for writing and reading large documents. And as concluded, since it is an Android device, it is multifunctional. It also shows that any decent Android tablet should be able to act as a portable screen as Onyx does. It would make Android tablets a whole lot more practical, without the trouble of using WiDi or Miracast Note: the Max2 can also be used as a Wacom tablet with some software, which makes it double duty and outperforming the Wacom Bamboo Slate I have. (They share the same pens!!!)
glup 8y ago
I feel like I've been looking into this every 6 months since the mid 2000's and there's still little progress. I would be thrilled if someone made a 20" - 27"screen with a simple HDMI connection; I don't care about the refresh rate.
- deleted 8y ago
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- deleted 8y ago
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fermienrico 8y ago
I wish Sharp Memory LCDs[1] were made in 20"+ format. They're a hybrid between LCDs and E-paper displays with extremely fast refresh rates and the contrast is almost as good as ePaper displays. I think monochrome displays would be fantastic for distraction-free coding or reading. What's interesting is that you just need to toggle VCOM signal either through software or external source every 1-2 seconds for about 10ms. Therefore, you can keep the content on the display's memory for years on a coin cell battery. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAoC818Mxy4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAoC818Mxy4
- rubicon33 8y ago
  Fascinating stuff. I wish this technology was available for computer monitor usage. I'd love to try it out.
adrianmonk 8y ago
Tangentially, the article shows video playing through eInk, and its choppy yet paper-like effect really reminds me of the animation style of the 1980s music video "Take On Me" by the band a-ha: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djV11Xbc914 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djV11Xbc914 I'm not sure if I'd be able to use one of these monitors without constantly thinking of that video.
- rout39574 8y ago
  That's an additional advantage. :)
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    Outstanding for sure
rubicon33 8y ago
I would LOVE if E-Ink monitors became a thing. Spending all day indoors sucks. I'd love to be able to work outside in the sun for an hour or two.
- singularity2001 8y ago
  Tried it this summer with 13'' Onyx Boox 2 as hdmi display and standalone. Both worked as expected, but somehow getting things done didn't really work well.
  - rubicon33 8y ago
    Interesting. Nice to know someone has used the 13" Onyx outside for work. Curious - why didn't it work for you?
    - singularity2001 8y ago
      Not onyx fault: It was just too hot;) Display is perfect in sun, but contrast not optimal in shade, so I couldn't escape the burn. Next time I try a 20m hdmi cable with normal display set to max in the shade.
- LyndsySimon 8y ago
  I work outdoors every day when it’s warm enough, from a hammock. I use a 13” MBP. As long as you’re in the shade it’s great. Polarized sunglasses help as well, and I have a color scheme for my terminal that’s dark-on-light that I switch to when it’s bright.
  - rubicon33 8y ago
    Yea I work outside in the shade as well sometimes. It works pretty well with a bright monitor, but you still have to be in the shade. I'd like to be able to soak up a little sun, while working.
- dogma1138 8y ago
  Lenovo has released a Yoga convertible with an E-ink display. https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/tablets/windows-tablets/yoga-book-series-windows/Yoga-Book-C930/p/ZA3S0055GB https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/tablets/windows-tablets/yoga-bo...
pdq 8y ago
These would make a great wristwatch, so you can get perpetual display of time with virtually zero power, and should get long battery life.
- Tharkun 8y ago
  I believe Nokia/Withings offers a fitness tracker with an eink display with a watchface.
  - r3bl 8y ago
    That is correct. Nokia/Withings Steel HR on my hand contains a small, surprisingly fast e-ink display (although low res). They also have small, barely noticeable LED lights lighting the screen to be visible during night. Much more pleasant way of checking the time during the night than looking at a phone. And its battery lasts 2-3 weeks and charges in two hours. The screen isn't always on though, and only activates on a click from the side.
stcredzero 8y ago
A 40 Hz model is already down to $1000. We may be on the cusp of some kind of sea change here. How insanely light could an E-Ink flatscreen monitor get? You don't need a backlight, so the power requirements would be much smaller and that would be a huge advantage to making something light. I could imagine an updated version of a "Sunflower" iMac built using one. MacOS resembling a magazine seems to be what Steve Jobs envisioned and what Apple is aiming for right now. Could they be made in such a way as to resemble good sheet material for acoustic exciters? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdkyGDqU7xA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdkyGDqU7xA
Waterluvian 8y ago
I would give up my code colouring for an e-ink monitor for coding. Such a delightful possible future here.
- atrilumen 8y ago
  I've been using these schemes in my terminal and editor for years now: base16-grayscale-dark base16-grayscale-light <3
scirocco 8y ago
And with Exeger e-ink devices will have eternal life :) http://www.exeger.com/ http://www.exeger.com/
kurthr 8y ago
If the maximum size is 13.3" as shown here, then no... they are not ready for prime time. That is big for a tablet or e-reader, but small for a laptop, and tiny for something called a monitor (outside of a colo).
- DrJaws 8y ago
  they are 4:3 ratio, so for a laptop is more than enough
  - kurthr 8y ago
    Well I haven't ever seen a laptop with 4:3 (1024x768?) although I loved my ancient 20" 1280x1024 5:4 monitor and there are lots of smaller 3:2 surface-like laptops. The 13.3" (and the tiny 12) still accounts for only 20% of the 2017 market, with 14.1-15.6 (and even larger) accounting for the remaining 30+50=80%. This was about the market for Monitors though... not just displays in general so this e-ink display just doesn't cover a significant portion of the market outside of tablets or very small laptops. Typical monitor sizes are 19-34", with the smaller "totable" 15.6-17" sizes accounting for <20% of the market. 13-14" aren't even listed as monitor sizes by the marketing groups like IHS or Display Search.
    - DrJaws 8y ago
      this ereaders doesn't have 1024 or 1280, the eink resolution is 2200x1650
      - kurthr 8y ago
        Yes, I read the article. However, I have never seen a laptop use such a aspect ratio even in the olden days, and I'm not sure manufacturers would choose to now, because... These are high resolution low contrast reflective screens limited to 13" which do not hit the current market diaginal/area expectations for mainstream laptops, much less desktop monitors. They are good for low power daylight operation and I'm sure there is a small market for people who don't like backlights and emissive displays. I like my kindle for books, but I also don't mind the backlight for indoor use. As desktop monitors they have missed everything but the smallest niche. Good luck if you really want to use one regularly as the writer says,"Based on my research, particularly great e-ink monitor comparisons, these devices are not ready for professional, daily use. They are laggy, have staining/ghosting problems, and perhaps worst, are quite unreliable. It seems that the failure rate on both of these devices is quite high and user happiness is quite low. If e-ink is your only option (because of health reasons) then these might be a savior, but short of that it seems like your best best is to wait for future development in the space."
nanomonkey 8y ago
Looking forward to installing emacs on http://fread.ink http://fread.ink once that's possible.
- mintplant 8y ago
  Is that project still alive? I don't see any activity in the past few months.
  - nanomonkey 8y ago
    Yes, as far as I know Juul is still working on it. It's pretty much just one guy and life does get in the way of open source projects.
DrJaws 8y ago
I have a max 2 since almost it was released and even if it can work as a display, it isn't ideal ghosting and a lower resolution needed to have a better refresh rate, kills a lot of the charm. imho, they can work but on a pretty niche way, but I wouldn't buy one just to use it as a display.
unicornporn 8y ago
> E-Ink Monitors: Ready for Prime Time? 13.3" at $899. I guess that answers the question.

90 points by toymachine 8y ago

I posted to ask last year asking why mid size and larger E-ink devices were so expensive relative to 6inch readers. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15787026 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15787026 might be of interested to some.

DrJaws 8y ago
The main reason is production costs. A single 13" screen is being sold to manufacturers for over 350.

coder543 8y ago

> It turns out that staring at back-lit computer monitors for 40+ hours a week might not be the best thing for you. Source? Light is still hitting your retinas, whether it comes from reflection or from a backlight. I really enjoy E-Ink displays, but not because of perceived health benefits from reflected light. I enjoy how readable they are under sunlight, how they consume zero energy to show a static image, and how this enables them to always show content even if the device has no power. It's simply not necessary to use unsourced health claims to justify a great technology like E-Ink.

thomas 8y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17724995 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17724995 Was a good thread
- fermienrico 8y ago
  I don't see anything related to reflectivity vs. backlight illumination. Most of the discussion is around the wavelength of light (blue) and its effects.
  - coder543 8y ago
    does light have any other intrinsic properties besides spectrum/wavelengths and intensity (EDIT: properties that vary based on the light source alone)? It doesn't matter if it came from a backlight or reflection, the electromagnetic waves are still electromagnetic waves. If the color spectrum is unpleasant, it's possible to use Night Shift or other features to shift the spectrum. If the intensity is unpleasant, just turn down the brightness.
    - romed 8y ago
      The problem is LCDs have much worse objective performance as the backlight diminishes. E-Ink has tragically bad contrast of 15:1, but it maintains that contrast ratio in low lighting conditions. LCD panels rely on high brightness for their contrast. At very low brightness, even the best LCD display has poor contrast. OLED displays have a different problem; they have so much noise at low brightness that the image falls apart. Still, I think a monochrome OLED display is what the person who wrote this article actually wants. It would have better performance in every respect to E-Ink, and it doesn't sound like their application requires E-Ink's low power.
      - coder543 8y ago
        I have used both LCD and OLED smartphone displays at incredibly low brightness in pitch black rooms for a long time, and I have to completely disagree. On the other hand, E-Ink is amazing in sunlight, where smartphone displays can't get sufficiently bright.
        singularity2001 8y ago
        Which smartphone displays can you set to 'incredibly low brightness'? all iPhones and Androids I've used are like bright flashlights when the lights are switched off.
        coder543 8y ago
        It's all relative. I don't own a single flashlight that can be set dimmer (or anywhere close to as dim) as my iPhone XS Max is at minimum brightness on a white page. If the XS Max is showing mostly-dark content, the amount of light emitted is really tiny at minimum brightness because of that OLED display. On the various Android devices I've owned, I've used a useful app called Screen Filter that adds a translucent layer on top of all apps to dim the screen beyond the artificial manufacturer-imposed minimum brightness, which worked especially well on OLED Android phones, but also LCDs worked fine too.
- djsumdog 8y ago
  Yea I remember that discussion. I'm not sure if I'm entirely convinced, but there are so many studies in progress looking at this that I decided to try running Redshift on my desktop again. I will say, it does seem to make it easier to fall asleep at night.
deleted 8y ago
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cimmanom 8y ago
You get a LOT more light from a backlight than from reflection, at least in indoor conditions.
- mrob 8y ago
  I can turn my monitor down so it's dimmer than a sheet of white paper on my desk. If I aim a desk lamp directly at the paper I can make it brighter than the monitor on full brightness. There's no standard brightness for monitor or paper.
  - cimmanom 8y ago
    But can you actually READ your monitor when it’s dimmer than a sheet of paper in ambient light?
    - coder543 8y ago
      why does it have to be dimmer than ambient?
    - mrob 8y ago
      If the contrast of the text is high enough, yes. For many websites this means custom CSS to disable the gray font color, but I do that anyway.
    - pmontra 8y ago
      Not much. I can't read those trendy gray on white web sites too.
  - InclinedPlane 8y ago
    What you're missing is that your eyes adjust the amount of light they let in and their sensitivity relative to ambient light, which can often result in a monitor having "inappropriate" brightness levels relative to that level. Nobody on the planet spends all day constantly adjusting their monitors' brightness and contrast levels, even assuming that it was possible to reach the appropriate levels in all ambient lighting conditions within the range of those controls (hint: it's not). On the other hand, passive displays (books, e-ink) by their nature inherently match ambient lighting conditions, because they simply reflect ambient light. This is the equivalent of a monitor with a much wider range of contrast and brightness levels equipped with an automatic adaptive adjustment with sub-nanosecond response times, something that simply does not exist with present technology. So yes, in theory a monitor could potentially match a passive display in terms of reducing eye strain and tiredness but in practice it is beyond the state of the art for now.
xkcd-sucks 8y ago
The mammalian visual system has been the predominant model system used in developmental neurobiology research for the past fiftyish years. It's generally known at this point that visual circuits pattern themselves according to input, and that visual systems fed from a constrained input domain lose the ability to meaningfully represent real-world input. We also know that computer displays show a very restricted subset of perceptual info, and also don't relate to other sensory modalities (like proprioception of head/eye movements to look at peripheral objects) which are important for maintaining an integrated environmental map. So, it's more reasonable to assume that looking at monitors is harmful than helpful, especially at a young age (or following a stroke, taking certain HDAC6 inhibitors or other things that increase "neural plasticity"). The common knowledge of developmental neurobiology has advanced to the point where the claim "closer to natural ISN'T better for normal development" is one which requires proof. Now, does this have any meaningful bearing on e-ink displays? The contrast ratio is closer to stuff you get in the natural world, but apart from that it's still a monitor.
- hnuser1234 8y ago
  Everything you said sounds really impressive, but >visual systems fed from a constrained input domain lose the ability to meaningfully represent real-world input. Seems to imply that looking at a computer monitor for too much of your life means you won't be able to see the real world, or not "see it right", whatever that means. The only example of that I've seen is some people (kids, presumably) commenting on the Nvidia RTX demo videos that the non-raytraced versions, which lack real world lighting dynamics, look "better" than the raytraced ones, which were, to me at least, obviously closer to physically realistic, representative images. Now, whether they were saying that because their eyes have literally programmed themselves for cheaply rendered video game worlds, or because they didn't want to face spending the asking price of the RTX hardware, is up to the reader.
  - Roritharr 8y ago
    To add an anecdote from my adolescence: When I was 12-15 I spent pretty much all my time indoors, playing PC games or learning how to code. I realized I hadn't visited the river I was living basically next to for atleast two years when I had to pick something up at a booth next to it. I realized there that I found the water in Star Wars Galaxies much more "realistic" than the actual river flowing by. This freaked me out so much that I took a week off of gaming and went to take walks for a week.
theclaw 8y ago
It's ironic that this advice is written on a website with an 0xFFFFFF brilliant white background. Edit: thank you, Dark Reader[0] [0]https://darkreader.org/ https://darkreader.org/
fouc 8y ago
I need to wear glasses with my retina display, but not with my e-ink reader. The eyes are definitely doing more work when looking at a backlit display for whatever reason.
- jrockway 8y ago
  Same distance, same text size, and same font?
  - coder543 8y ago
    also, same color scheme? I've seen some studies that show it's harder for people with certain vision issues to focus on text that's white text on a black background than it is for them to focus on black text on a white background, so.. if they're trying to read on a dark theme on their phone, that could be noticeably different from using their E-Ink screen, which is almost certainly using a light theme.
    - fouc 8y ago
      That would definitely be a good experiment to try. I would have to try a light black on light grey to match the kindle.

gambler 8y ago

I'd pay a lot of money for a decent E Ink monitor. I don't need color or high refresh rate. I do need it to "just work", be reliable and relatively big. The second step would be software support so that I could leave images on the screen when the computer is off. Stuff mentioned in the article is interesting, but it sounds like the quality is quite bad for all 3.

pasbesoin 8y ago
There's been recent mention of the... Onyx Boox Max2, as Google refreshes my memory. It can be used as a display via a simple HDMI connection. I read a few articles, and I'd like to try one, but I haven't convinced myself to put down $800 . Here's a googled link that my browser history says I've visited before: https://goodereader.com/blog/electronic-readers/onyx-boox-max2-pro-13-3-inch-e-reader-review https://goodereader.com/blog/electronic-readers/onyx-boox-ma... P.S. As I asked at the time, does anyone know the/a source for the panel? Although I guess the custom firmware and buttoned down access to same, may make getting a raw panel a non-starter. P.P.S. Duh. OP article mentions it. Anyway... still wondering where the panel comes from.
- yorwba 8y ago
  I searched for a teardown, but only found one of the Dasung Paperlike Pro https://kevzettler.com/2018/02/11/dasung-paperlike-pro-teardown https://kevzettler.com/2018/02/11/dasung-paperlike-pro-teard... , but which helpfully links to a source for the panel. The biggest display they have seems to be a 42" monochrome display for $2000 https://shopkits.eink.com/product-category/e-ink-display-modules/15/ https://shopkits.eink.com/product-category/e-ink-display-mod...
  - pasbesoin 8y ago
    Thank you. At a first glance, that is an interesting/intriguing site. Note that it's another $500 for the controller module they recommend. (I know, I was asking after the Max2's raw panel. But in considering making one of the ones on this site work.) There's also a listing for a 31.2" panel capable of 4096 colors (per the description). $2300.

frou_dh 8y ago

It's always going to be dodgy until the graphical OS you're running is aware of what eInk is, and adapts the UI toolkit and general rendering to play to eInk's strengths.

adrianmonk 8y ago
This might be one of those situations where things have to move forward imperfectly. First some people get eInk monitors, then OS developers see that there are at least some real users and some concrete reason to believe there's a payoff in supporting them. Then decent software support will encourage more people to get eInk monitors, and that will encourage OS developers to turn decent software support into good software support. A similar thing happened with SSDs. At first operating systems weren't TRIM-aware, but people used SSDs anyway. IIRC, first device drivers got support to send the TRIM command, then later filesystems got the ability to send the TRIM command automatically, then flash-oriented filesystems were built and went into wide(r) use.
- rubicon33 8y ago
  My worry is that E-Ink Monitors will never reach the "minimum quality" point at which they are adopted by a sufficient number of people to get the ball rolling. I don't suffer from any medical reason to use one, but, I would absolutely purchase one this second (any pay a lot for it) if it worked well. Unfortunately, what I've seen so far from the Dasung and the Onyx, isn't worth $800. I just hope these companies have enough runway to continue improving the product such that early adopters like myself, will jump in.
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  - bryanrasmussen 8y ago
    What will cause it to be worth $800?
ahakki 8y ago
Maybe just setting Windows into one of it’s High Contrast Settings would help[0]. I’m sure MacOS offers a similar feature. [0]http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=windows+10+high+contrast http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=windows+10+high+contrast

utopcell 8y ago

Seems like the Lenovo Yoga Book C930 would do the trick.

gbraad 8y ago

I have the MaxCarta and Max2. I use the older model using network connectivity, and the Max2 using HDMI. It is really a decent experience... just the refresh rate is slow. I use it for writing and reading large documents. And as concluded, since it is an Android device, it is multifunctional. It also shows that any decent Android tablet should be able to act as a portable screen as Onyx does. It would make Android tablets a whole lot more practical, without the trouble of using WiDi or Miracast Note: the Max2 can also be used as a Wacom tablet with some software, which makes it double duty and outperforming the Wacom Bamboo Slate I have. (They share the same pens!!!)

glup 8y ago

I feel like I've been looking into this every 6 months since the mid 2000's and there's still little progress. I would be thrilled if someone made a 20" - 27"screen with a simple HDMI connection; I don't care about the refresh rate.

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fermienrico 8y ago

I wish Sharp Memory LCDs[1] were made in 20"+ format. They're a hybrid between LCDs and E-paper displays with extremely fast refresh rates and the contrast is almost as good as ePaper displays. I think monochrome displays would be fantastic for distraction-free coding or reading. What's interesting is that you just need to toggle VCOM signal either through software or external source every 1-2 seconds for about 10ms. Therefore, you can keep the content on the display's memory for years on a coin cell battery. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAoC818Mxy4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAoC818Mxy4

rubicon33 8y ago
Fascinating stuff. I wish this technology was available for computer monitor usage. I'd love to try it out.

adrianmonk 8y ago

Tangentially, the article shows video playing through eInk, and its choppy yet paper-like effect really reminds me of the animation style of the 1980s music video "Take On Me" by the band a-ha: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djV11Xbc914 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djV11Xbc914 I'm not sure if I'd be able to use one of these monitors without constantly thinking of that video.

rout39574 8y ago
That's an additional advantage. :)
- agumonkey 8y ago
  Outstanding for sure

rubicon33 8y ago

I would LOVE if E-Ink monitors became a thing. Spending all day indoors sucks. I'd love to be able to work outside in the sun for an hour or two.

singularity2001 8y ago
Tried it this summer with 13'' Onyx Boox 2 as hdmi display and standalone. Both worked as expected, but somehow getting things done didn't really work well.
- rubicon33 8y ago
  Interesting. Nice to know someone has used the 13" Onyx outside for work. Curious - why didn't it work for you?
  - singularity2001 8y ago
    Not onyx fault: It was just too hot;) Display is perfect in sun, but contrast not optimal in shade, so I couldn't escape the burn. Next time I try a 20m hdmi cable with normal display set to max in the shade.
LyndsySimon 8y ago
I work outdoors every day when it’s warm enough, from a hammock. I use a 13” MBP. As long as you’re in the shade it’s great. Polarized sunglasses help as well, and I have a color scheme for my terminal that’s dark-on-light that I switch to when it’s bright.
- rubicon33 8y ago
  Yea I work outside in the shade as well sometimes. It works pretty well with a bright monitor, but you still have to be in the shade. I'd like to be able to soak up a little sun, while working.
dogma1138 8y ago
Lenovo has released a Yoga convertible with an E-ink display. https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/tablets/windows-tablets/yoga-book-series-windows/Yoga-Book-C930/p/ZA3S0055GB https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/tablets/windows-tablets/yoga-bo...

pdq 8y ago

These would make a great wristwatch, so you can get perpetual display of time with virtually zero power, and should get long battery life.

Tharkun 8y ago
I believe Nokia/Withings offers a fitness tracker with an eink display with a watchface.
- r3bl 8y ago
  That is correct. Nokia/Withings Steel HR on my hand contains a small, surprisingly fast e-ink display (although low res). They also have small, barely noticeable LED lights lighting the screen to be visible during night. Much more pleasant way of checking the time during the night than looking at a phone. And its battery lasts 2-3 weeks and charges in two hours. The screen isn't always on though, and only activates on a click from the side.

stcredzero 8y ago

A 40 Hz model is already down to $1000. We may be on the cusp of some kind of sea change here. How insanely light could an E-Ink flatscreen monitor get? You don't need a backlight, so the power requirements would be much smaller and that would be a huge advantage to making something light. I could imagine an updated version of a "Sunflower" iMac built using one. MacOS resembling a magazine seems to be what Steve Jobs envisioned and what Apple is aiming for right now. Could they be made in such a way as to resemble good sheet material for acoustic exciters? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdkyGDqU7xA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdkyGDqU7xA

Waterluvian 8y ago

I would give up my code colouring for an e-ink monitor for coding. Such a delightful possible future here.

atrilumen 8y ago
I've been using these schemes in my terminal and editor for years now: base16-grayscale-dark base16-grayscale-light <3

scirocco 8y ago

And with Exeger e-ink devices will have eternal life :) http://www.exeger.com/ http://www.exeger.com/

kurthr 8y ago

If the maximum size is 13.3" as shown here, then no... they are not ready for prime time. That is big for a tablet or e-reader, but small for a laptop, and tiny for something called a monitor (outside of a colo).

DrJaws 8y ago
they are 4:3 ratio, so for a laptop is more than enough
- kurthr 8y ago
  Well I haven't ever seen a laptop with 4:3 (1024x768?) although I loved my ancient 20" 1280x1024 5:4 monitor and there are lots of smaller 3:2 surface-like laptops. The 13.3" (and the tiny 12) still accounts for only 20% of the 2017 market, with 14.1-15.6 (and even larger) accounting for the remaining 30+50=80%. This was about the market for Monitors though... not just displays in general so this e-ink display just doesn't cover a significant portion of the market outside of tablets or very small laptops. Typical monitor sizes are 19-34", with the smaller "totable" 15.6-17" sizes accounting for <20% of the market. 13-14" aren't even listed as monitor sizes by the marketing groups like IHS or Display Search.
  - DrJaws 8y ago
    this ereaders doesn't have 1024 or 1280, the eink resolution is 2200x1650
    - kurthr 8y ago
      Yes, I read the article. However, I have never seen a laptop use such a aspect ratio even in the olden days, and I'm not sure manufacturers would choose to now, because... These are high resolution low contrast reflective screens limited to 13" which do not hit the current market diaginal/area expectations for mainstream laptops, much less desktop monitors. They are good for low power daylight operation and I'm sure there is a small market for people who don't like backlights and emissive displays. I like my kindle for books, but I also don't mind the backlight for indoor use. As desktop monitors they have missed everything but the smallest niche. Good luck if you really want to use one regularly as the writer says,"Based on my research, particularly great e-ink monitor comparisons, these devices are not ready for professional, daily use. They are laggy, have staining/ghosting problems, and perhaps worst, are quite unreliable. It seems that the failure rate on both of these devices is quite high and user happiness is quite low. If e-ink is your only option (because of health reasons) then these might be a savior, but short of that it seems like your best best is to wait for future development in the space."

nanomonkey 8y ago

Looking forward to installing emacs on http://fread.ink http://fread.ink once that's possible.

mintplant 8y ago
Is that project still alive? I don't see any activity in the past few months.
- nanomonkey 8y ago
  Yes, as far as I know Juul is still working on it. It's pretty much just one guy and life does get in the way of open source projects.

DrJaws 8y ago

I have a max 2 since almost it was released and even if it can work as a display, it isn't ideal ghosting and a lower resolution needed to have a better refresh rate, kills a lot of the charm. imho, they can work but on a pretty niche way, but I wouldn't buy one just to use it as a display.

unicornporn 8y ago

> E-Ink Monitors: Ready for Prime Time? 13.3" at $899. I guess that answers the question.