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What's the point of forking something you can't install without voiding your warranty? Especially knowing that you can't redistribute your fork because average

by gamble 16y ago

What's the point of forking something you can't install without voiding your warranty? Especially knowing that you can't redistribute your fork because average users won't hack their phones to install it, and even if they did your fork would lack essential applications like an email client or maps? Android is no more open than Tivo, and in fact is the perfect example of what the GPL3 advocates were warning us about.

carussell 16y ago
Android is no more open than Tivo Does hyperbole make you feel good? Just what, exactly, are you proposing happen in the sphere of source code that's going to affect manufacturers' warranty process, really? Open source doesn't mean everything is amazing and you won't have to deal with logistics and deployment issues. You have the code, but if you want to get serious and get more than a dozen installs, you should expect to do some heavy lifting of your own and take care of some of the business aspects of the situation. Not everything can be solved by source and a code license.
- gamble 16y ago
  It isn't hyperbole. Like Tivo, Android can only be installed on hardware from manufacturers that are hostile to unofficial software. Most handset manufacturers go out of their way to make installing unofficial builds difficult. They all void your warranty if you try. The fact is that there are no Android forks worthy of the name and never will be so long as hacking is required to install it. Open-source software that can never be installed is only 'open' in the most technical sense.
  - davidw 16y ago
    > Most manufacturers So put your money where your mouth is and buy from those who don't do that. You have that possibility with Android: Nexus One. > The fact is that there are no Android forks worthy of the name and never will be so long as hacking is required to install it I installed Linux for the first time in 1996, downloading a bunch of Slackware floppies over a 28.8 modem (IIRC), and it certainly took some hacking to install. Granted, the vast majority of people out there aren't like that, but it's kind of odd on a site called 'hacker news' to see people who seem oblivious to the hacker spirit, and what a group of motivated people can accomplish, given time. The reason there are no (visible - I'm sure there are a few minor ones out there) forks of Android is because Google is doing a decent job, and mostly racing ahead of where forkers would be going on their own.
    - rimantas 16y ago
      So Nexus One is not discontinued after all?
      - davidw 16y ago
        http://www.google.com/phone/detail/nexus-one http://www.google.com/phone/detail/nexus-one "The Nexus One is available for sale in the US to registered developers" - and my guess is that that's not a particularly high barrier to entry. Also, being in Italy, it gives me a "buy from vodaphone" link. Unlocked phones are much more common here in Europe, so apparently they're still selling them here: https://offerte.vodafone.it/nexus-one/ https://offerte.vodafone.it/nexus-one/
  - carussell 16y ago
    It isn't hyperbole. Horseshit. i) There's a difference between it being utterly impossible to modify the software on the system, as in the case of TiVo, and "manufacturers [being] hostile to unofficial software". There is no shortage of Android devices that do allow you to run your own software on the system. ii) TiVo was only compelled to release the modified kernel and a few GNU utilities that they shipped on the system, and that's exactly what they released. Can you download the source for the TiVo software itself? Here's a hint: the answer is "no". How much of the Android source beyond the modified kernel and GNU utilities is available? Oh, all of it.
    - pornel 16y ago
      > How much of the Android source beyond the modified kernel and GNU utilities is available? Oh, all of it. Google's Android apps (mail, maps) and marketplace are closed and only available for certified devices.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
  - caf 16y ago
    That sounds more like a complaint about the openness of the hardware than the software. If it eventually becomes impossible to buy PCs that won't boot unsigned code, that will be a sad day, but it won't make open software any less open.
snissn 16y ago
you're confusing hardware with software, i can download, modify, sell, distribute, edit, sell the edits, and legally execute the code for any release of android, and couldn't even begin to do any of that for any apple OS. Chromium and android are free, safari was built off of a GPL code base, but OSX and iOS are locked down
- rimantas 16y ago
  You don't know much about OS X, do you?
  - rimantas 16y ago
    http://opensource.apple.com/ http://opensource.apple.com/ Yes, you won't get everything from there. But where can I get a source for Google Voice?
kelnos 16y ago
I seriously doubt Google/HTC would really be able to deny a warranty claim for a bootloader-unlocked N1, at least for customers in the US. See the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. A manufacturer can't deny warranty coverage based on a user modification that has no bearing on the defective part. If the trackball falls out of my phone and I send it in for warranty repair, there's zero chance they'll be able to successfully claim that the problem was caused by me unlocking the bootloader.

by gamble 16y ago

carussell 16y ago

Android is no more open than Tivo Does hyperbole make you feel good? Just what, exactly, are you proposing happen in the sphere of source code that's going to affect manufacturers' warranty process, really? Open source doesn't mean everything is amazing and you won't have to deal with logistics and deployment issues. You have the code, but if you want to get serious and get more than a dozen installs, you should expect to do some heavy lifting of your own and take care of some of the business aspects of the situation. Not everything can be solved by source and a code license.

gamble 16y ago
It isn't hyperbole. Like Tivo, Android can only be installed on hardware from manufacturers that are hostile to unofficial software. Most handset manufacturers go out of their way to make installing unofficial builds difficult. They all void your warranty if you try. The fact is that there are no Android forks worthy of the name and never will be so long as hacking is required to install it. Open-source software that can never be installed is only 'open' in the most technical sense.
- davidw 16y ago
  > Most manufacturers So put your money where your mouth is and buy from those who don't do that. You have that possibility with Android: Nexus One. > The fact is that there are no Android forks worthy of the name and never will be so long as hacking is required to install it I installed Linux for the first time in 1996, downloading a bunch of Slackware floppies over a 28.8 modem (IIRC), and it certainly took some hacking to install. Granted, the vast majority of people out there aren't like that, but it's kind of odd on a site called 'hacker news' to see people who seem oblivious to the hacker spirit, and what a group of motivated people can accomplish, given time. The reason there are no (visible - I'm sure there are a few minor ones out there) forks of Android is because Google is doing a decent job, and mostly racing ahead of where forkers would be going on their own.
  - rimantas 16y ago
    So Nexus One is not discontinued after all?
    - davidw 16y ago
      http://www.google.com/phone/detail/nexus-one http://www.google.com/phone/detail/nexus-one "The Nexus One is available for sale in the US to registered developers" - and my guess is that that's not a particularly high barrier to entry. Also, being in Italy, it gives me a "buy from vodaphone" link. Unlocked phones are much more common here in Europe, so apparently they're still selling them here: https://offerte.vodafone.it/nexus-one/ https://offerte.vodafone.it/nexus-one/
- carussell 16y ago
  It isn't hyperbole. Horseshit. i) There's a difference between it being utterly impossible to modify the software on the system, as in the case of TiVo, and "manufacturers [being] hostile to unofficial software". There is no shortage of Android devices that do allow you to run your own software on the system. ii) TiVo was only compelled to release the modified kernel and a few GNU utilities that they shipped on the system, and that's exactly what they released. Can you download the source for the TiVo software itself? Here's a hint: the answer is "no". How much of the Android source beyond the modified kernel and GNU utilities is available? Oh, all of it.
  - pornel 16y ago
    > How much of the Android source beyond the modified kernel and GNU utilities is available? Oh, all of it. Google's Android apps (mail, maps) and marketplace are closed and only available for certified devices.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
- caf 16y ago
  That sounds more like a complaint about the openness of the hardware than the software. If it eventually becomes impossible to buy PCs that won't boot unsigned code, that will be a sad day, but it won't make open software any less open.

snissn 16y ago

you're confusing hardware with software, i can download, modify, sell, distribute, edit, sell the edits, and legally execute the code for any release of android, and couldn't even begin to do any of that for any apple OS. Chromium and android are free, safari was built off of a GPL code base, but OSX and iOS are locked down

rimantas 16y ago
You don't know much about OS X, do you?
- rimantas 16y ago
  http://opensource.apple.com/ http://opensource.apple.com/ Yes, you won't get everything from there. But where can I get a source for Google Voice?

kelnos 16y ago

I seriously doubt Google/HTC would really be able to deny a warranty claim for a bootloader-unlocked N1, at least for customers in the US. See the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. A manufacturer can't deny warranty coverage based on a user modification that has no bearing on the defective part. If the trackball falls out of my phone and I send it in for warranty repair, there's zero chance they'll be able to successfully claim that the problem was caused by me unlocking the bootloader.