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Yamaha, Honda + some other Japanese brand dominate this market in volume. They’re the ones that will switch over to electric without issue. The Japanese are def

Yamaha, Honda + some other Japanese brand dominate this market in volume. They’re the ones that will switch over to electric without issue. The Japanese are definitely waiting longer than normal. But they’re the ones that will have the largest car and motorbike producers to make the switch when they want. I’ve riden a Niu. Was nothing new or exciting. GPS, lcd and apps are the last thing people want out of a scooter. Go and back. Go and back. Go and back. That’s all a scooter is and will be used for. Because scooters a cheap item.

jhpankow 8y ago
I suppose it makes sense for incumbent brands to delay: they'd like to control when and how this cannibalizes their existing product lines.
- askaboutit 8y ago
  I feel Toyota is cushy with oil interests. So they’re definitely acting the slowest. Think about the major markets for scooters. Taiwan, Indonesia, Phillipines, Malaysia, Vietnam, Thailand. Going to be a very tough break up on oil for these countries. Not sure they’ll afford to retool to electric. Especially the dealer network that runs off repairs and parts. Considering an electric scooter is easily maintained and repaired.
mc32 8y ago
Wonder what Kymco and SanYang are doing in the electric scooter market given their dominance in some markets.
schuke 8y ago
They make great engines but do they make great battery and motors too? What other parts are sophisticated on a scooter? How would they compete with Chinese rivals? I live in China but have never seen anything from any manufacturer other than local ones. I've always wondered why there isn't a Honda scooter. It seems these scooters tend to weigh and ride more like bicycles (light & slow) rather than motorcycles (heavy and fast). Do they require very different design / manufacture skillsets? Some analysis on this would make interesting reading.
- askaboutit 8y ago
  Most “scooters” in china are more like peddled scooters. Most people go to and from a short distance. Under 48v maybe 15Ah. That’s giving you about 30km or under real range. Most bikes use lead acid and are heavy as anything to carry around. Most goto the shops which is downstairs and maybe 10-20km max a day if at all on their bikes. The ones that need further might buy a lithium battery. But then there’s the cost, cheap scooter 1399rmb expensive lithium scooter 3000-6000. The niu is a Bosch motor. So nothing unique or engineered about it. It’s some oem with plastic and an app developer. They’re light. They’re basic. They’re cheap. Now go sit on a Yamaha 110 scooter. Or 125 scooter. Those are built well. They run nice and they’re great fun. All Yamaha needs to do is take an electric motor (easy) and place that with a locally sourced (Panasonic, Sanyo, Sony) battery and boom. Niu useless and the app became even more so. If anything. Indian made bikes are the only thing that could compete with Yamaha and Honda. There’s some real innovation coming out of there. I can’t remember the name of one bike. But it had an in built lcd panel that was actually useful with inbuilt maps, a super charging network, custom designed motor and a aluminium milled body. Really neat stuff. India is coming!
  - singularity2001 8y ago
    who needs a builtin lcd panel when you can just plug in your phone?
    - askaboutit 8y ago
      Who needs a built in lcd at all? No one. Butter Indian designers built maps in. That’s useful and the only reason anyone needs that. Also who needs two hands on the handle bars when you can plug in your phone and ride with one on the throttle and the other on maps. There is 0 use for plugging a phone into a scooter. Nor is it even safe to build that as a feature. You’re phone is not your priority whilst riding.
- askaboutit 8y ago
  https://www.atherenergy.com/ https://www.atherenergy.com/ This is the Indian player. Trually the first real forward thinking “scooter” I’ve seen that’s electric. Completely rebuilt from the “ground up” I’d say. Niu is slapped together hedge fund money.
schuke 8y ago
Another thought: I'm not familiar with the typical demography of Hondas and Yamahas, but in China the typical scooter user seems very different from a stereotypical motorcycle rider. The former would be a female, aged 35-50, lives within ~10km from work, possibly as home cleaner, waitress etc, who would perhaps never touch a motorcycle, who wouldn't be able or willing to get a license for motorcycle too.
justinhj 8y ago
I wouldn’t write off China in any industry. Due to legislation and economics of car ownership there are cities where 90 % of the traffic is electric scooters. There is a lot of expertise in building them. In addition Chinese are very keen adopters of mobile tech, although I agree in this case it seems gimmicky
- askaboutit 8y ago
  90% peddled scooters. Not scooters or mopeds. They’re crappy two sweaters with peddles and a heavy under feet lead acid battery. They’re junk. Niu is a polished version of a cheap plastic scooter around the same concept. Who on earth wants to pull their battery out really when it weighs 14kg and you need to do it twice? They’re selling a china only problem in Europe. Zero thought.
  - singularity2001 8y ago
    apparently they are very useful for Chinese people otherwise they wouldn't buy millions of them. and what's so different about Europe/US cities?
    - askaboutit 8y ago
      You can’t ride one of these cheaply made scooters legally on a footpath anywhere but the USA where 700w is ok without a license or insurance without finding some legal trouble. They’re mostly 350w-500w in China. Which makes them illegal to use in China and in Europe. They’re constantly taken off the roads in China by the police. In Europe the distance would be greater to travel and elevation too. China’s cities are mostly flat roads as theyre bulldozed and concreted. Have fun riding 250w up a hill with two Germans that weigh 90kg and are 6 foot 2.
  - justinhj 8y ago
    They're very cool electric scooters with long lasting light batteries, for around $2000 USD. Didn't see a single "pedalled" scooter there.
walshemj 8y ago
That depends on which country and which brand I am looking at getting a proper scooter in the Uk and it's pretty much down to which Vespa variant do I get and how I get it customised. And do get a second hand 125 one for a few months before going for the full bike licence and buying a new 300 Gts.
- askaboutit 8y ago
  Exactly. Because the price is no longer cheap. So you want quality and your quality to price point is a Vespa. In Asia it’s a Yamaha or a Honda. They’re the biggest markets and the quality their is still great. They only have to pivot to electric to beat niu with the same designs. But the kWh is the only thing stopping that. But Panasonic and Tesla are already leading the price on lithium ion and density and Panasonic is Japanese. Japan and India will take this market. China just doesn’t build decent vehicles. And by decent. I mean really refined.

jhpankow 8y ago

I suppose it makes sense for incumbent brands to delay: they'd like to control when and how this cannibalizes their existing product lines.

askaboutit 8y ago
I feel Toyota is cushy with oil interests. So they’re definitely acting the slowest. Think about the major markets for scooters. Taiwan, Indonesia, Phillipines, Malaysia, Vietnam, Thailand. Going to be a very tough break up on oil for these countries. Not sure they’ll afford to retool to electric. Especially the dealer network that runs off repairs and parts. Considering an electric scooter is easily maintained and repaired.

mc32 8y ago

Wonder what Kymco and SanYang are doing in the electric scooter market given their dominance in some markets.

schuke 8y ago

They make great engines but do they make great battery and motors too? What other parts are sophisticated on a scooter? How would they compete with Chinese rivals? I live in China but have never seen anything from any manufacturer other than local ones. I've always wondered why there isn't a Honda scooter. It seems these scooters tend to weigh and ride more like bicycles (light & slow) rather than motorcycles (heavy and fast). Do they require very different design / manufacture skillsets? Some analysis on this would make interesting reading.

askaboutit 8y ago
Most “scooters” in china are more like peddled scooters. Most people go to and from a short distance. Under 48v maybe 15Ah. That’s giving you about 30km or under real range. Most bikes use lead acid and are heavy as anything to carry around. Most goto the shops which is downstairs and maybe 10-20km max a day if at all on their bikes. The ones that need further might buy a lithium battery. But then there’s the cost, cheap scooter 1399rmb expensive lithium scooter 3000-6000. The niu is a Bosch motor. So nothing unique or engineered about it. It’s some oem with plastic and an app developer. They’re light. They’re basic. They’re cheap. Now go sit on a Yamaha 110 scooter. Or 125 scooter. Those are built well. They run nice and they’re great fun. All Yamaha needs to do is take an electric motor (easy) and place that with a locally sourced (Panasonic, Sanyo, Sony) battery and boom. Niu useless and the app became even more so. If anything. Indian made bikes are the only thing that could compete with Yamaha and Honda. There’s some real innovation coming out of there. I can’t remember the name of one bike. But it had an in built lcd panel that was actually useful with inbuilt maps, a super charging network, custom designed motor and a aluminium milled body. Really neat stuff. India is coming!
- singularity2001 8y ago
  who needs a builtin lcd panel when you can just plug in your phone?
  - askaboutit 8y ago
    Who needs a built in lcd at all? No one. Butter Indian designers built maps in. That’s useful and the only reason anyone needs that. Also who needs two hands on the handle bars when you can plug in your phone and ride with one on the throttle and the other on maps. There is 0 use for plugging a phone into a scooter. Nor is it even safe to build that as a feature. You’re phone is not your priority whilst riding.
askaboutit 8y ago
https://www.atherenergy.com/ https://www.atherenergy.com/ This is the Indian player. Trually the first real forward thinking “scooter” I’ve seen that’s electric. Completely rebuilt from the “ground up” I’d say. Niu is slapped together hedge fund money.

schuke 8y ago

Another thought: I'm not familiar with the typical demography of Hondas and Yamahas, but in China the typical scooter user seems very different from a stereotypical motorcycle rider. The former would be a female, aged 35-50, lives within ~10km from work, possibly as home cleaner, waitress etc, who would perhaps never touch a motorcycle, who wouldn't be able or willing to get a license for motorcycle too.

justinhj 8y ago

I wouldn’t write off China in any industry. Due to legislation and economics of car ownership there are cities where 90 % of the traffic is electric scooters. There is a lot of expertise in building them. In addition Chinese are very keen adopters of mobile tech, although I agree in this case it seems gimmicky

askaboutit 8y ago
90% peddled scooters. Not scooters or mopeds. They’re crappy two sweaters with peddles and a heavy under feet lead acid battery. They’re junk. Niu is a polished version of a cheap plastic scooter around the same concept. Who on earth wants to pull their battery out really when it weighs 14kg and you need to do it twice? They’re selling a china only problem in Europe. Zero thought.
- singularity2001 8y ago
  apparently they are very useful for Chinese people otherwise they wouldn't buy millions of them. and what's so different about Europe/US cities?
  - askaboutit 8y ago
    You can’t ride one of these cheaply made scooters legally on a footpath anywhere but the USA where 700w is ok without a license or insurance without finding some legal trouble. They’re mostly 350w-500w in China. Which makes them illegal to use in China and in Europe. They’re constantly taken off the roads in China by the police. In Europe the distance would be greater to travel and elevation too. China’s cities are mostly flat roads as theyre bulldozed and concreted. Have fun riding 250w up a hill with two Germans that weigh 90kg and are 6 foot 2.
- justinhj 8y ago
  They're very cool electric scooters with long lasting light batteries, for around $2000 USD. Didn't see a single "pedalled" scooter there.

walshemj 8y ago

That depends on which country and which brand I am looking at getting a proper scooter in the Uk and it's pretty much down to which Vespa variant do I get and how I get it customised. And do get a second hand 125 one for a few months before going for the full bike licence and buying a new 300 Gts.

askaboutit 8y ago
Exactly. Because the price is no longer cheap. So you want quality and your quality to price point is a Vespa. In Asia it’s a Yamaha or a Honda. They’re the biggest markets and the quality their is still great. They only have to pivot to electric to beat niu with the same designs. But the kWh is the only thing stopping that. But Panasonic and Tesla are already leading the price on lithium ion and density and Panasonic is Japanese. Japan and India will take this market. China just doesn’t build decent vehicles. And by decent. I mean really refined.