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Same dev team does whole stack, from kernel, kits, drivers, servers to user space. In theory, it is all integrated and has direct path from server to kernel, re

Same dev team does whole stack, from kernel, kits, drivers, servers to user space. In theory, it is all integrated and has direct path from server to kernel, resulting in more efficient system. BeOS core API was designed for multi core systems from day one, so the design is more modern than older systems. The core API is C++, from kernel to user space. Lots of things to like, it just needs more polish and devs to flourish.

tomovo 8y ago
So if it were to be used as a server OS, would it have the potential to be faster/more integrated than Linux? Or at least as well?
tialaramex 8y ago
> Same dev team does whole stack, from kernel, kits, drivers, servers to user space. In theory, it is all integrated and has direct path from server to kernel, resulting in more efficient system. Except, while that's often what the blurb says, the implementation is typically paste in whatever somebody else wrote and call it a day. For example years back Haiku announced it was going to have WiFi. Its own WiFi stack, far more integrated and reliable than things you were using on other systems. Very exciting. And then as a "stop gap" it pasted in FreeBSD's PCI 802.11 driver subsystem, and the WPA Supplicant you've seen on all your Free Unix systems. And that's where they stopped. Last time I checked they had a version of WPA Supplicant vulnerable to KRACK but I'm sure they'd updated for the Beta. How does their "integrated" solution handle your WiFi credentials? They use the powerful Haiku "KeyStore" password protection system. Here's how that works: You write the plaintext password into a file. Don't worry though, in KeyStore they wrote "TODO: Actually encrypt". Which I think you'll agree is almost as good as using encryption ? > BeOS core API was designed for multi core systems from day one, so the design is more modern than older systems. More modern is relative. "Older systems" in this context is stuff from the 1980s, because BeOS is roughly the same age as Linux, started in 1991. However in Haiku you won't find anything like IO Completion ports, or futexes. You won't find any privilege separation because everything runs as "root". Everybody else moved on and Haiku is stuck being really quite good by 1990s standards.
- eloisant 8y ago
  Well, BeOS is the same age as Linux but Linux was an implementation of older concepts (Unix) while BeOS was designed from scratch.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    That was 1991 Linux. Modern linux has moved much further than the original implementation, introducing all kinds of non-old-time-UNIX concepts (starting from Plan9 ones).
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      It still needs to catch up with mainframes' security, though.
      - yjftsjthsd-h 8y ago
        In general I don't know enough to disagree, but keep in mind the context here is comparing to Haiku, which is not great at security, particularly of the multi-user sort to which you refer.
        pjmlp 8y ago
        There is a Multics security research paper that describes out-of-bounds as practically non-existent thanks to PL/I features. According to the Linux Kernel Security Summit 2018, 68% of kernel exploits are caused by out-of-bounds errors. That is just one example, there is plenty of material available to anyone that wants to dive into the subject. So just because GNU/Linux faires better in security towards Haiku, doesn't mean there is nothing left to improve.
- waddlesplash 8y ago
  > You won't find any privilege separation because everything runs as "root". The GUI runs as root, but you can start applications as non-root users (in fact the sshd does run as another user by default, etc.)
coldtea 8y ago
>servers to user space Yeah, but isn't most user space one would want to use some GNU util or another or from any number of third-party projects?
- pjmlp 8y ago
  As Apple and Microsoft have found out, one just needs to provide a UNIX/Linux userspace layer and it's a win.
  - ComputerGuru 8y ago
    Apple does not have a Unix user space shim, macOS is a Unix OS with non-Unix userspace built on top of that. But, yes, WSL proves the point.
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      Layer != shim, unless I got my English wrong. My remark was into the sense of those using OS X and WSL as pretty GNU/Linux. In this context, a certified UNIX has a couple of surprises to those that never left GNU/Linux.
pjmlp 8y ago
> The core API is C++, from kernel to user space That was what made me get interested in BeOS in first place.
ComputerGuru 8y ago
> Same dev team does whole stack, from kernel, kits, drivers, servers to user space. This is why I use FreeBSD.
- waddlesplash 8y ago
  FreeBSD doesn't develop their own desktop environment, window manager, compositor, or display server. Haiku does all of those things.
- zokula 8y ago
  That's why Freebsd lost it's technical lead 15 years ago.

tomovo 8y ago

So if it were to be used as a server OS, would it have the potential to be faster/more integrated than Linux? Or at least as well?

tialaramex 8y ago

> Same dev team does whole stack, from kernel, kits, drivers, servers to user space. In theory, it is all integrated and has direct path from server to kernel, resulting in more efficient system. Except, while that's often what the blurb says, the implementation is typically paste in whatever somebody else wrote and call it a day. For example years back Haiku announced it was going to have WiFi. Its own WiFi stack, far more integrated and reliable than things you were using on other systems. Very exciting. And then as a "stop gap" it pasted in FreeBSD's PCI 802.11 driver subsystem, and the WPA Supplicant you've seen on all your Free Unix systems. And that's where they stopped. Last time I checked they had a version of WPA Supplicant vulnerable to KRACK but I'm sure they'd updated for the Beta. How does their "integrated" solution handle your WiFi credentials? They use the powerful Haiku "KeyStore" password protection system. Here's how that works: You write the plaintext password into a file. Don't worry though, in KeyStore they wrote "TODO: Actually encrypt". Which I think you'll agree is almost as good as using encryption ? > BeOS core API was designed for multi core systems from day one, so the design is more modern than older systems. More modern is relative. "Older systems" in this context is stuff from the 1980s, because BeOS is roughly the same age as Linux, started in 1991. However in Haiku you won't find anything like IO Completion ports, or futexes. You won't find any privilege separation because everything runs as "root". Everybody else moved on and Haiku is stuck being really quite good by 1990s standards.

eloisant 8y ago
Well, BeOS is the same age as Linux but Linux was an implementation of older concepts (Unix) while BeOS was designed from scratch.
- coldtea 8y ago
  That was 1991 Linux. Modern linux has moved much further than the original implementation, introducing all kinds of non-old-time-UNIX concepts (starting from Plan9 ones).
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    It still needs to catch up with mainframes' security, though.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 8y ago
      In general I don't know enough to disagree, but keep in mind the context here is comparing to Haiku, which is not great at security, particularly of the multi-user sort to which you refer.
      - pjmlp 8y ago
        There is a Multics security research paper that describes out-of-bounds as practically non-existent thanks to PL/I features. According to the Linux Kernel Security Summit 2018, 68% of kernel exploits are caused by out-of-bounds errors. That is just one example, there is plenty of material available to anyone that wants to dive into the subject. So just because GNU/Linux faires better in security towards Haiku, doesn't mean there is nothing left to improve.
waddlesplash 8y ago
> You won't find any privilege separation because everything runs as "root". The GUI runs as root, but you can start applications as non-root users (in fact the sshd does run as another user by default, etc.)

coldtea 8y ago

>servers to user space Yeah, but isn't most user space one would want to use some GNU util or another or from any number of third-party projects?

pjmlp 8y ago
As Apple and Microsoft have found out, one just needs to provide a UNIX/Linux userspace layer and it's a win.
- ComputerGuru 8y ago
  Apple does not have a Unix user space shim, macOS is a Unix OS with non-Unix userspace built on top of that. But, yes, WSL proves the point.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    Layer != shim, unless I got my English wrong. My remark was into the sense of those using OS X and WSL as pretty GNU/Linux. In this context, a certified UNIX has a couple of surprises to those that never left GNU/Linux.

pjmlp 8y ago

> The core API is C++, from kernel to user space That was what made me get interested in BeOS in first place.

ComputerGuru 8y ago

> Same dev team does whole stack, from kernel, kits, drivers, servers to user space. This is why I use FreeBSD.

waddlesplash 8y ago
FreeBSD doesn't develop their own desktop environment, window manager, compositor, or display server. Haiku does all of those things.
zokula 8y ago
That's why Freebsd lost it's technical lead 15 years ago.