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What I Learned from Having Steve Jobs Swear at Me
- neonate 8y agohttp://archive.is/Ppep1 http://archive.is/Ppep1
- th0ma5 8y agoI wonder if Steve was still around if he'd be softening up some?
- mrhackerpoland 8y agoHis style of management got him success which he envisioned, why would he change it?
- acjohnson55 8y agoIt frustrates me to no end to see people apologize for the abusive behavior of powerful people. If this engineer can be expected to find a better font, his boss can be expected to express what he found so unacceptable in an actual critique.
- aikah 8y agoYep, apparently harassment, verbal assault and abuse is just seen as yet another management technique these days and engineers will apologize for it, which is a paradox in the era of "safe spaces" and "code of conducts".
- acjohnson55 8y agoI really don't think it's a new thing. If anything, it's less acceptable than ever. Even in the military, I think they've toned it down from the Full Metal Jacket-style abuse.
- mrhackerpoland 8y agoWhat I've seen is that people who take it up with HR get blacklisted after multiple complaints and will not find much success. You need perseverance to take every blow and still stand on your feet.
- mathw 8y agoThat is not the person's problem, that is the HR department's problem and the company's problem. And, really, a reason to look for another company.
- alex_young 8y agoThis article is a little incoherent TBH. How is debasing someone's work a more effective way of motivating better future work than simply explaining clearly what you need improved? Angry words are necessarily going to come across as personal no matter how much you want them to mean something else.
- dieterrams 8y agoWatch Whiplash.
- everdev 8y agoIn my opinion, anger is an excellent short-term motivator. Jobs probably wanted something done that day or that week and had to get pissed to motivate everyone to work extra hours to get it done. It certainly does come with a long-term price though of people thinking you're a jerk and burning out on your anger. So, it depends on what your goals are. But, if you don't mind burning through staff and relationships, getting pissed will probably get you more short-term bang for your buck than being kind and calm.
- watwut 8y agoWhat if it is just lack of self-control while the rest of us is expected be able to keep our emotions in control. Seriously. Had I unleashed like that, I would be seen as hysterical. And also, what if letting someone unleash on you is not a sign of strength, but simply sign of being weaker not being stand up for yourself And also, what if someone need to be yelled at to do good work does not make him good engineer, really. And also, what if long term crunch is ineffective and short term overtime should not require yelling. What if it is possible to build large company while not being perfect and it is the "not perfect" thing about job.
- fenomas 8y ago> Jobs probably wanted something done that day or that week and had to get pissed to motivate everyone.. That's possible, but I think "Jobs got angry because he angered easily, regardless of whether it was necessary to motivate people" would be the more parsimonious explanation.
- sambroner 8y agoThese stories about Jobs often describe him as an oracle. He clearly helped produced uniquely excellent products (just by virtue of their success), but was he ever the ideator? Or was his main gift sifting great work from everything else?
- kovek 8y agoI think it's important what one believes in and what one pushes towards. Sometimes, I don't care who came up with an idea, I care who pushed it forward because they thought it was worth it and they believed in that idea.
- TheOtherHobbes 8y agoHe copied, refined, and simplified, with a rare sense of taste that was often missing in the original projects. (E.g. Xerox Star vs Mac. The Star was a much better computer, the Mac was a much better consumer product.) He was also an abusive narcissist. The narcissistic drive to be visibly superior to other people was a core motivation for him. Someone less driven - or possibly damaged - wouldn't have been nearly as passionate about the end result. It's an open question if it's possible to do insanely great work without any dysfunction at all. Narcissistic abuse and management-as-ego-boost is such a common thing in US (and US influenced) business culture that it's almost impossible to imagine a corporate culture with no trace of it. I have a suspicion that a more easy-going culture would be better in some ways, especially with humane long-term strategy, but might lack some colour. It would be good to find out one day if the trade-off is acceptable. (It might well be, depending on your strategy horizon.)
- jballanc 8y agoWhen I was at Apple, I once heard Steve describe his roll within the company as "hire the best people and say 'no' a lot". Also, behind closed doors, Steve swore a LOT. In other words, him calling something "dog shit" was not at all an unusual or unexpected utterance. I think if your only experience of him is the "Steve"-notes and press interviews, then this story probably comes across a bit differently than it did in reality for Ken.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- sandebert 8y agohttps://outline.com/jaDXPP https://outline.com/jaDXPP
- leoh 8y agoWeird take. But here goes. Jobs was a jerk. But -- speaking for myself here and many of my colleagues -- we engineers are, ourselves, a pretty egotistical bunch. And when operating from a place of ego, it's just a lot harder to get great work done. If someone can simultaneously (a) crush your ego while (b) implicitly telling you that you are, in spite of your errors, capable of great work... well, some great things can happen. It no longer becomes an issue about impressing someone (Jobs was notoriously difficult to please) -- it instead becomes a matter of producing excellent work. But what do I know. I have several friends that worked for jobs directly. And he could in fact be a jerk. I have heard him privately described as needing to piss on things. But as a friend of mine said -- "he almost always was right." Incidentally, this position I am taking is to some degree a somewhat Zen / Tibetan Buddhist position. That is, that dissolution of the ego is the most important thing for our well-being. And that teachers, but also anyone, really, that challenges us could actually -- if seen from a pretty advanced perspective -- be seen to help us wake up. To quote a zen master, Torei Enji: "If by any chance such a person should turn against us, become a sworn enemy and abuse and persecute us, we should sincerely bow down with humble language, in reverent belief that he or she is the merciful avatar of Buddha, who uses devices to emancipate us from sinful karma that has been produced and accumulated upon ourselves by our own egoistic delusion and attachment through countless cycles of kalpas." This is not to say that Jobs was a "Buddha"... but that, perhaps, anyone who challenges us in a tremendous way... may be in a way helping direct us to waking up, being our best "self."
- everdev 8y agoUsually I agree with this of thanking those who trigger us and showing us where we need to grow. There is a shadow to it though in that it's not always a rosy outcome when people are challenged continuously and in stressful situations. To quote Carl Jung: "the dosage makes it either a poison or a remedy". For every story of growth, I'm sure there are a few of people quitting who couldn't take the verbal abuse.
- dieterrams 8y agoJobs’ approach is to inculcate a deep-seated insecurity that drives people to do better work. This is quite a bit different from dissolution of the ego, because it very much depends on the subject having an ego to manipulate.
- SomewhatLikely 8y agoThere's an important difference between criticizing a person and criticizing someone's work. The work can be iterated on and improved through additional effort. If your criticism comes off as being directed at the person it can have very demotivational effects. Also, not everyone is looking out for the subtlety of where the criticism is directed. So it's best to make the distinction clear.
- KKKKkkkk1 8y agoImagine that your boss told you straight to your face that your project is “dog shit.” Next, imagine that this boss is Steve Jobs. That’s what happened to me when I was working as the principal engineer of iPhone software during Apple’s golden years. What was the right way for me to react? It would have been a bad idea for me to agree with Steve, raising the question of why I would offer him inferior work. But it would have done no good to disagree either, unless I was willing to enter into an on-the-spot debate with a famously mercurial CEO—and at that moment, I wasn’t. The answer is easy. Immediately tell your boss that he is using inappropriate language, stop the conversation, and report him to HR. I'm pretty sure this is what Apple's official policy for this sort of situations tells you to do.
- everdev 8y agoIt would be nice if it was that easy. Unfortunately, it's far too easy for HR to give the boss a pass, especially when the accuser is below them (and considered less important to the company). And it's not too difficult for that boss to find ways to get you fired if they feel betrayed by you reporting them. Giving you impossible deadlines, tasks you aren't well suited for, dropping hints to other people that you're not performing well, etc. Corporate politics are ugly and are designed to get around HR. Or, maybe HR takes your side, who knows, but I think a lot of people are afraid to report out of fear for their jobs.
- the-dude 8y agoYou seem to assume HR is there for you ( it is not ).
- 8y ago
- liquid153 8y ago“What I Learned From Having Steve Jobs Sh!tting on Me” Another apple employee
- mrhackerpoland 8y agoWhen i first worked in Finland for a very successful mobile game development company, the project manager told me, whatever you are working on is complete shit, we can't afford you to be wasting our money on this. Every single minute you spend in arguing for your idea is paid by us which is true. After that i got a blow to my ego and started doing what manager told me to. Looking back, i was really wasting their money and once i got blow to my ego, my productivity drastically increased. I used to be fast learning workholic and yes, i need constant blows to my ego to prevent me from derailing myself into oblivion. So, i would have respect Steve jobs, if he would have been asshole to me. Edit: I simply detailed my personal experience, so I don't understand your downvotes.
- kweks 8y agoRovio was/is a special case for bizarre management.
- whitepoplar 8y agoFor anyone who's curious, here's the best video I've found that breaks apart the idea of an "asshole": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRRvjZ_XNog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRRvjZ_XNog Essentially, people can be dicks and non-dicks, while simultaneously being givers or takers. Nobody likes a taker, even if they're nice, because that person doesn't help one grow. On the other hand, someone can be a real dick, but in a "giving" way that helps achieve a better outcome for both individuals. In the case of Jobs, one could argue that his personality was justified not only because great work came out of it, but also because the people doing that work became the best version of themselves in the process. If someone is capable of great work and they produce good work, there's a certain kindness to telling them that's not acceptable. But saying the exact same thing to someone who's less capable can be mean.
- aaronbrethorst 8y agoTrauma bonding: A psychologically abusive relationship is a rollercoaster, with punishment and then intermittent reinforcement of kindness when you “behave.” This means the body is going through its own turmoil, with high levels of the stress hormone cortisol, paired with dopamine when given affection as a reward. https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/trauma-bonding-abusive-relationships-why-people-stay-domestic-violence-addiction-partners-a7940686.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/trauma-bonding-abus...
- mrhackerpoland 8y agoI am a masocist, i wouldn't be in development getting insulted by a lifeless computer everyday if i was normal. Anyone who insults me and motivates to offer my best, gets my respect and best work. Heck, i would work for more hours if you can offer me such cortisol+dopamine effect which comes from such treatment. Think about this. Who struggles with a lifeless computer when they only get the sufferings and frustration which comes with it? Swearing at me is the least you could do to provoke any response. I like Steve Jobs and I've yet to find the CEOs who are like him. This is probably why there is no other apple.
- RickJWagner 8y agoBad spin. By saying "Jobs did it, but it's kind of ok", the author is giving license to every self-styled Jobs wannabe that thinks they are headed for greatness. Jerks should be called out as jerks, no matter how much success or failure they have had. Success and decency as a human being are orthogonal.