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E.g. in Iceland you can vote with a driver's license, a passport or a national ID. Those cost, respectively, $45, $110 and $40. Although I see now the first nat

by avar 8y ago

E.g. in Iceland you can vote with a driver's license, a passport or a national ID. Those cost, respectively, $45, $110 and $40. Although I see now the first national ID you get issued in your life is free, but if you ever lose it you pay the fee to renew it. It's the same sort of thing in most European countries, you need to prove who you are, and usually doing that costs some one-off nominal fee. Voting is always going to carry some cost, whether that's money or in externalities imposed on voters. I'm not saying Iceland and other European countries are "comparable to the US", I'm sure we could spend all day moving that particular goal post. I was just pointing out that there's nothing wrong per-se with requiring ID to vote. I'm somewhat familiar with the US history on the matter, and realize that in practice, and I think uniquely in the US, it's a wedge issue that's historically been motivated by voter disenfranchisement. But it's important to separate that practical concern about particular implementations from the very notion that having a national ID system and using it for things like voting could never work. I'm curious about how this works in practice. If you're a tourist visiting the US during a vote can you just show up to a voting polling station and cast a vote? If you don't have to show your ID what happens from the time you walk up to a polling station until you cast your vote and walk out again?

mercutio2 8y ago
Claiming to be a citizen, or claiming to be someone you’re not, is voter fraud, and can lead to a decade or more in prison. As it happens, essentially no one in the US commits voter fraud of this sort (the go in, vote as someone you’re not, kind. Ballot stuffing may or may not be a thing, or rigging of digital elections may be a thing). The US also makes voting day be on a normal work days, it’s not a holiday or weekend, and people don’t get time off work to vote. There are often very long waiting lines to vote. So telling people they need an ID to vote leads to people actually being disenfranchised, in the US, if they just forgot their ID. And again, actual voter fraud is so rare that it’s national news when someone is convicted of it (and people go looking for it often).
wtallis 8y ago
> I'm curious about how this works in practice. If you're a tourist visiting the US during a vote can you just show up to a voting polling station and cast a vote? If you don't have to show your ID what happens from the time you walk up to a polling station until you cast your vote and walk out again? In most states, you must be registered to vote before election day. In those states, non-citizens who attempt to vote will be asked their name and address before they are handed a ballot. When they are found to not be on the registration list for that polling precinct, they will not get a regular ballot. They may be given the chance to cast a provisional ballot, but it will be thrown out during the counting process when evidence cannot be found that the person was eligible to vote. The voter registration process has proven to be a highly effective means of preventing ineligible voters from voting. The exceptions tend to be when different government departments fail to communicate effectively to catch people registering in multiple places, or ineligible criminals attempting to register. Voter ID does not meaningfully improve the security against non-citizens voting.
- avar 8y ago
  > In most states, you must be registered to vote before election day. Okey, so there's a list of people eligible to vote at a given polling station, but how do you you get on that list? If there's no mandate to show ID do you just show up for registration and say your name is John Smith living at such-and-such St? The federal census is every 10 years so that claim can't be checked against that. Do local governments maintain their own name/address databases? Are they ever going to say "we don't believe that you live here". What do you do then? Show up with a utility bill with your name on it?
  - wtallis 8y ago
    In my state, registering to vote requires providing either drivers license number, showing ID, or something like utility bills as proof of address. The form asks if you're a US citizen but does not require you to submit documentation proving citizenship.
    - avar 8y ago
      Upthread there's mention of "homeless living in camps near San Jose". How does someone without a driver's license or home (so no utility bills) register?
slg 8y ago
Iceland was the type of country I was thinking of when I wrote that comment. Iceland has a smaller population than any state in the US and smaller than over 50 cities in the US. It is also very homogeneous when it comes to race and socioeconomic attributes. I am sure that they have found an approach that works for them, but it is tough to use them as a model for the US. Either way, even a requirement for a $45 ID would be seen by many in the US as a poll tax which was outlawed by a constitutional amendment during the civil rights movement. To answer your questions about voting in the US, everything varies by state/territory. All of them require you to register before you are allowed to vote. The deadline to register is usually weeks to months before election day. A few states allow you to register on election day and your vote won't be counted until your registration is confirmed. When you register (or in the lead up to the election) you are assigned a specific polling location. Many states have some sort of absentee or mail ballot that allows you to vote if you can't or don't want to physically go to a polling place. You have to be registered ahead of time to receive one of those ballots. On election day you show up to your assigned polling place and tell them your name. The polling place will have a list of people eligible to vote at that location and will match your name to their list. You might be asked to sign next to your name on their list to confirm you voted and potentially confirm your identity. I have no idea if anyone really reviews the signatures. If your name isn't on the list, you may be given a provisional ballot and then there will be a process to investigate why you weren't on the list. Provisional ballots generally aren't counted unless a race is extremely close and a large percentage of those ballots end up being disqualified for various reasons. An extremely determined tourist might be able to lie their way into filling out a provisional ballot but it wouldn't be counted because their eligibility wouldn't be confirmed. They could potentially impersonate a known eligible voter, but that would require them knowing the correct polling place, knowing that person has not yet voted, and be willing to commit an obvious fraud. The upside for committing that type of fraud is extremely low considering the effort that would be required to swing anything but the smallest elections. There is no real evidence that anymore than a handful of people attempt this type of thing during any election.

by avar 8y ago

mercutio2 8y ago

Claiming to be a citizen, or claiming to be someone you’re not, is voter fraud, and can lead to a decade or more in prison. As it happens, essentially no one in the US commits voter fraud of this sort (the go in, vote as someone you’re not, kind. Ballot stuffing may or may not be a thing, or rigging of digital elections may be a thing). The US also makes voting day be on a normal work days, it’s not a holiday or weekend, and people don’t get time off work to vote. There are often very long waiting lines to vote. So telling people they need an ID to vote leads to people actually being disenfranchised, in the US, if they just forgot their ID. And again, actual voter fraud is so rare that it’s national news when someone is convicted of it (and people go looking for it often).

wtallis 8y ago

> I'm curious about how this works in practice. If you're a tourist visiting the US during a vote can you just show up to a voting polling station and cast a vote? If you don't have to show your ID what happens from the time you walk up to a polling station until you cast your vote and walk out again? In most states, you must be registered to vote before election day. In those states, non-citizens who attempt to vote will be asked their name and address before they are handed a ballot. When they are found to not be on the registration list for that polling precinct, they will not get a regular ballot. They may be given the chance to cast a provisional ballot, but it will be thrown out during the counting process when evidence cannot be found that the person was eligible to vote. The voter registration process has proven to be a highly effective means of preventing ineligible voters from voting. The exceptions tend to be when different government departments fail to communicate effectively to catch people registering in multiple places, or ineligible criminals attempting to register. Voter ID does not meaningfully improve the security against non-citizens voting.

avar 8y ago
> In most states, you must be registered to vote before election day. Okey, so there's a list of people eligible to vote at a given polling station, but how do you you get on that list? If there's no mandate to show ID do you just show up for registration and say your name is John Smith living at such-and-such St? The federal census is every 10 years so that claim can't be checked against that. Do local governments maintain their own name/address databases? Are they ever going to say "we don't believe that you live here". What do you do then? Show up with a utility bill with your name on it?
- wtallis 8y ago
  In my state, registering to vote requires providing either drivers license number, showing ID, or something like utility bills as proof of address. The form asks if you're a US citizen but does not require you to submit documentation proving citizenship.
  - avar 8y ago
    Upthread there's mention of "homeless living in camps near San Jose". How does someone without a driver's license or home (so no utility bills) register?

slg 8y ago

Iceland was the type of country I was thinking of when I wrote that comment. Iceland has a smaller population than any state in the US and smaller than over 50 cities in the US. It is also very homogeneous when it comes to race and socioeconomic attributes. I am sure that they have found an approach that works for them, but it is tough to use them as a model for the US. Either way, even a requirement for a $45 ID would be seen by many in the US as a poll tax which was outlawed by a constitutional amendment during the civil rights movement. To answer your questions about voting in the US, everything varies by state/territory. All of them require you to register before you are allowed to vote. The deadline to register is usually weeks to months before election day. A few states allow you to register on election day and your vote won't be counted until your registration is confirmed. When you register (or in the lead up to the election) you are assigned a specific polling location. Many states have some sort of absentee or mail ballot that allows you to vote if you can't or don't want to physically go to a polling place. You have to be registered ahead of time to receive one of those ballots. On election day you show up to your assigned polling place and tell them your name. The polling place will have a list of people eligible to vote at that location and will match your name to their list. You might be asked to sign next to your name on their list to confirm you voted and potentially confirm your identity. I have no idea if anyone really reviews the signatures. If your name isn't on the list, you may be given a provisional ballot and then there will be a process to investigate why you weren't on the list. Provisional ballots generally aren't counted unless a race is extremely close and a large percentage of those ballots end up being disqualified for various reasons. An extremely determined tourist might be able to lie their way into filling out a provisional ballot but it wouldn't be counted because their eligibility wouldn't be confirmed. They could potentially impersonate a known eligible voter, but that would require them knowing the correct polling place, knowing that person has not yet voted, and be willing to commit an obvious fraud. The upside for committing that type of fraud is extremely low considering the effort that would be required to swing anything but the smallest elections. There is no real evidence that anymore than a handful of people attempt this type of thing during any election.