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I will support any system that insures that all voters have verified citizenship.

wtallis 8y ago
At what cost? Are you interested in ensuring that additional voting restrictions actually prevent more illegal votes than they prevent legitimate votes? What makes you think the base rate of non-citizen voting is even high enough to be a problem that can be addressed without invariably causing more harm than good?
- dev_dull 8y ago
  Integrity of our system is important. It doesn’t need to be a partisan issue.
  - wtallis 8y ago
    Sure, but how is any of that relevant to voter ID? If you really care about integrity of the voting system, then you should also care about prioritizing the problems that are real, easily exploited, and have the greatest potential for harm. Voter ID is largely a solution looking for a problem, with undeniable side effects of voter suppression. It's being made into a partisan issue not by its opponents but by the proponents who are unjustifiably elevating the issue above more important systemic election vulnerabilities.
    - robotrout 8y ago
      Nonsense. We've been asking for voter id for years and you've been opposing it for years. Why is that? You talk about conspiracy theories. This notion that there is this huge population of legal, eligible voters who are functioning in our society without ID is ludicrous. But if you want to implement paper ballots across the board at the same time, or even 1st, than let's make that happen. As you say, any progress is better than none. Since you are obstructing voter id and not obstructing paper ballots (I assume), than by all means, let's do that first.
      - wtallis 8y ago
        > We've been asking for voter id for years and you've been opposing it for years. Why is that? Ignoring for the moment how improper it is for you to take such a personally accusative tone: The voter ID opposition has been thoroughly justified by the lack of evidence that the problems it solves are real enough to need solving, and by the fact that even the slightest awareness of the context surrounding these voter ID proposals makes it clear that they are not good-faith attempts to make our elections more fair. In short: nobody's falling for the lies. They're too transparent.
        robotrout 8y ago
        > nobody's falling for the lies. They're too transparent. I would be pleased if you did not personally insult those who you are speaking to. The lack of evidence is a farce, since any attempts to collect such evidence are met with stonewalling and refusal by democratically controlled local and state government. In 2014, a study released by a team of professors from Old Dominion University and George Mason University estimated that approximately 6.4 percent of noncitizens voted In the 2008 presidential election. (Versus 56% of legal citizens voting) As immigration reform becomes more and more of an issue, there is incentive for that 6.4 percent number to further increase, and indeed it may have in 2016, but that data is proving hard to pry loose. Since there are 11 million illegals in the US by the lowest estimate (high estimates are 20 million) this is not a non-problem. As for the disenfranchisement canard. Even Nate Silver acknowledges it's non-validity. Silver has noted, this argument doesn’t make sense because the vast majority of adults in America hold some form of photo identification and states with voter ID laws offer qualifying documentation at minimal or no cost.
  - vkou 8y ago
    Turning ten people who have the right to vote away, to catch one cheater is a ten times worse violation of integrity then the converse. Not letting a citizen vote is just as much voter fraud as a non-citizen voting. Except its worse, because it is performed by the state.
- robotrout 8y ago
  Do you believe your own rhetoric, or is it just reflex at this point? Use paper ballots and voter id and we never have to have another discussion about voter fraud and election legitimacy. It is important that the people who should be part of the system actually believe in that system or it all breaks. There are many Americans (myself included) who feel that these things need to be addressed. This constant push back on an issue that is well accepted everywhere else on earth, which is that a voting process should be verified to only include eligible voters, is a bit transparent.
  - dang 8y ago
    If you continue to post uncivilly and/or to use HN for political battle, we're going to have to ban you. Please review the rules at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow them regardless of what topic you're commenting on.

At what cost? Are you interested in ensuring that additional voting restrictions actually prevent more illegal votes than they prevent legitimate votes? What makes you think the base rate of non-citizen voting is even high enough to be a problem that can be addressed without invariably causing more harm than good?

dev_dull 8y ago
Integrity of our system is important. It doesn’t need to be a partisan issue.
- wtallis 8y ago
  Sure, but how is any of that relevant to voter ID? If you really care about integrity of the voting system, then you should also care about prioritizing the problems that are real, easily exploited, and have the greatest potential for harm. Voter ID is largely a solution looking for a problem, with undeniable side effects of voter suppression. It's being made into a partisan issue not by its opponents but by the proponents who are unjustifiably elevating the issue above more important systemic election vulnerabilities.
  - robotrout 8y ago
    Nonsense. We've been asking for voter id for years and you've been opposing it for years. Why is that? You talk about conspiracy theories. This notion that there is this huge population of legal, eligible voters who are functioning in our society without ID is ludicrous. But if you want to implement paper ballots across the board at the same time, or even 1st, than let's make that happen. As you say, any progress is better than none. Since you are obstructing voter id and not obstructing paper ballots (I assume), than by all means, let's do that first.
    - wtallis 8y ago
      > We've been asking for voter id for years and you've been opposing it for years. Why is that? Ignoring for the moment how improper it is for you to take such a personally accusative tone: The voter ID opposition has been thoroughly justified by the lack of evidence that the problems it solves are real enough to need solving, and by the fact that even the slightest awareness of the context surrounding these voter ID proposals makes it clear that they are not good-faith attempts to make our elections more fair. In short: nobody's falling for the lies. They're too transparent.
      - robotrout 8y ago
        > nobody's falling for the lies. They're too transparent. I would be pleased if you did not personally insult those who you are speaking to. The lack of evidence is a farce, since any attempts to collect such evidence are met with stonewalling and refusal by democratically controlled local and state government. In 2014, a study released by a team of professors from Old Dominion University and George Mason University estimated that approximately 6.4 percent of noncitizens voted In the 2008 presidential election. (Versus 56% of legal citizens voting) As immigration reform becomes more and more of an issue, there is incentive for that 6.4 percent number to further increase, and indeed it may have in 2016, but that data is proving hard to pry loose. Since there are 11 million illegals in the US by the lowest estimate (high estimates are 20 million) this is not a non-problem. As for the disenfranchisement canard. Even Nate Silver acknowledges it's non-validity. Silver has noted, this argument doesn’t make sense because the vast majority of adults in America hold some form of photo identification and states with voter ID laws offer qualifying documentation at minimal or no cost.
- vkou 8y ago
  Turning ten people who have the right to vote away, to catch one cheater is a ten times worse violation of integrity then the converse. Not letting a citizen vote is just as much voter fraud as a non-citizen voting. Except its worse, because it is performed by the state.
robotrout 8y ago
Do you believe your own rhetoric, or is it just reflex at this point? Use paper ballots and voter id and we never have to have another discussion about voter fraud and election legitimacy. It is important that the people who should be part of the system actually believe in that system or it all breaks. There are many Americans (myself included) who feel that these things need to be addressed. This constant push back on an issue that is well accepted everywhere else on earth, which is that a voting process should be verified to only include eligible voters, is a bit transparent.
- dang 8y ago
  If you continue to post uncivilly and/or to use HN for political battle, we're going to have to ban you. Please review the rules at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow them regardless of what topic you're commenting on.