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border sovereignty But here's the rub. The UK never gave that up. England (and by default Ireland) are not in the Schengen accord[1]. You cannot get into the

border sovereignty But here's the rub. The UK never gave that up. England (and by default Ireland) are not in the Schengen accord[1]. You cannot get into the UK from Europe without passing border control and showing your passport (Id for some countries). Even if you stretch that argument (our borders are porous and any EU citizen can move the UK to work) that argument still doesn't wash. You have to be documented and all. The UK never gave up control of their borders. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area

growlist 8y ago
The UK can only deny entrance to EU citizens under very limited circumstances, on pain of being dragged through EU courts. Does that sound like sovereignty to you?
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  Same as UK citizens have the right to settle and work in 30 odd other countries. That's what agreements and accords are for. Or are you suggesting that UK unilaterally grants rights, which they don't receive in return? Ironically, the UK was one of the most open and welcoming countries, when ex eastern European countries were granted the freedom of movement. They took a lot of opt outs, from the Euro to parts of judical agreements and then some from the EU. They could also have opted out to some extent. But probably the lure of cheap employees sounded just too good to be true.
  - debacle 8y ago
    The entire idea of the Brexit is that mobility to the UK is not of equal value to mobility of the rest of the EU.
  - growlist 8y ago
    Here's what wikipedia says: 'Sovereignty is the full right and power of a governing body over itself, without any interference from outside sources or bodies.' Sounds to me like a pretty conclusive definition.
YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
That's a good point. In fact, you can't cross borders in the Schengen area as an EU citizen unless you show some proof that you are, indeed, an EU citizen - for example, a passport. Although other documentation, like national ID cards will do, they can cause trouble. I don't know if it's official policy or what, but I travel by land and sea around the EU very often and I've had problems with over-zealous border officials many a time. For instance, I've been delayed twice at the French border from and to the UK by French officials, who pretended they couldn't determine whether my Greek national ID card is valid (allegedly, because it doesn't have an expiration date; Greek ID cards currently don't) and kept repeating that "if you had a passport, things would have been so much easier, now we have to call a specialist to examine this document" wink-wink, nudge-nudge. [The funny thing is, I was travelling with my cousin's ID card by mistake, but they didn't realise because we look very much like each other- "specialist" guy, my arse] So while officially you can travel without a passport in the Schengen area, in practice, you better have some ID.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  Ahh, French customs officials. The epitome of kindness and courtesy. I agree that you never should travel without ID, but not accepting a Greek id just borders on ridiculous. I very rarely had to show ID on inter-Schengen flights. But I'm certainly not stupid enough to not carry one. The only European country where I actually carry my passport is England. Since you can't use the automated gates with an ID. But I never had trouble with my (Swiss) id.
- joncrocks 8y ago
  I've driven across many EU borders without stopping, let alone having to show any ID.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
    Well, I don't drive, I travel by train and ferry boat, so I don't know what happens if you're driving.
orf 8y ago
> The UK never gave up control of their borders. but the funny man with the silly hair said we did! he said it on TV and the daily mail said it as well!! i trust him as he says we have a plan, plus one time he got stuck on a zipwire - that's so relatable! what a nice down to earth guy.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  Ahh, you mean the dude who promised 350million Euros a week for the NHS? The funny man who was caught in multiple lies, when he was Brussels correspondent for The Telegraph? So brazen and repeated that not even The Telegraph could keep him on? Funny man, indeed. Alas with grave consequences for the whole country.

growlist 8y ago

The UK can only deny entrance to EU citizens under very limited circumstances, on pain of being dragged through EU courts. Does that sound like sovereignty to you?

CaptainZapp 8y ago
Same as UK citizens have the right to settle and work in 30 odd other countries. That's what agreements and accords are for. Or are you suggesting that UK unilaterally grants rights, which they don't receive in return? Ironically, the UK was one of the most open and welcoming countries, when ex eastern European countries were granted the freedom of movement. They took a lot of opt outs, from the Euro to parts of judical agreements and then some from the EU. They could also have opted out to some extent. But probably the lure of cheap employees sounded just too good to be true.
- debacle 8y ago
  The entire idea of the Brexit is that mobility to the UK is not of equal value to mobility of the rest of the EU.
- growlist 8y ago
  Here's what wikipedia says: 'Sovereignty is the full right and power of a governing body over itself, without any interference from outside sources or bodies.' Sounds to me like a pretty conclusive definition.

YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago

That's a good point. In fact, you can't cross borders in the Schengen area as an EU citizen unless you show some proof that you are, indeed, an EU citizen - for example, a passport. Although other documentation, like national ID cards will do, they can cause trouble. I don't know if it's official policy or what, but I travel by land and sea around the EU very often and I've had problems with over-zealous border officials many a time. For instance, I've been delayed twice at the French border from and to the UK by French officials, who pretended they couldn't determine whether my Greek national ID card is valid (allegedly, because it doesn't have an expiration date; Greek ID cards currently don't) and kept repeating that "if you had a passport, things would have been so much easier, now we have to call a specialist to examine this document" wink-wink, nudge-nudge. [The funny thing is, I was travelling with my cousin's ID card by mistake, but they didn't realise because we look very much like each other- "specialist" guy, my arse] So while officially you can travel without a passport in the Schengen area, in practice, you better have some ID.

CaptainZapp 8y ago
Ahh, French customs officials. The epitome of kindness and courtesy. I agree that you never should travel without ID, but not accepting a Greek id just borders on ridiculous. I very rarely had to show ID on inter-Schengen flights. But I'm certainly not stupid enough to not carry one. The only European country where I actually carry my passport is England. Since you can't use the automated gates with an ID. But I never had trouble with my (Swiss) id.
joncrocks 8y ago
I've driven across many EU borders without stopping, let alone having to show any ID.
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
  Well, I don't drive, I travel by train and ferry boat, so I don't know what happens if you're driving.

orf 8y ago

> The UK never gave up control of their borders. but the funny man with the silly hair said we did! he said it on TV and the daily mail said it as well!! i trust him as he says we have a plan, plus one time he got stuck on a zipwire - that's so relatable! what a nice down to earth guy.

CaptainZapp 8y ago
Ahh, you mean the dude who promised 350million Euros a week for the NHS? The funny man who was caught in multiple lies, when he was Brussels correspondent for The Telegraph? So brazen and repeated that not even The Telegraph could keep him on? Funny man, indeed. Alas with grave consequences for the whole country.