4 ms·

I don't think it's fair to blame leave voters, the whole thing was fundamentally flawed. While it was obvious what remain meant, "leave" was never actually defi

I don't think it's fair to blame leave voters, the whole thing was fundamentally flawed. While it was obvious what remain meant, "leave" was never actually defined, and so open to interpretation. Forgetting for a second the whole thing was just a ploy to win over UKIP voters, it is ridiculous that this far down the line leave still hasn't been defined. A small part of me thinks that maybe May is playing the 4D chess long-con, and deliberately being as incompetent as possible to drive us to a last-minute remain outcome. Ockham's Razor says otherwise though

petercooper 8y ago
I don't think it's fair to blame leave voters They actively chose something that you say was poorly defined but which was widely understood to be a very dramatic and potentially dangerous shift for the country. If you can't blame them for picking a poorly defined option out of some jingoistic notion of what the UK should be, what can you blame anyone for?
- 7000skeletons 8y ago
  You could probably blame the people responsible for the referendum in the first place, trying to use the notion of a Brexit vote as some sort of political brinkmanship game against the EU and then running for the hills when people didn't vote the way they expected them to. Like that David Cameron clown, for instance.
- growlist 8y ago
  > If you can't blame them for picking a poorly defined option out of some jingoistic notion of what the UK should be, what can you blame anyone for? How's the view up there on that high horse?
- YouAreGreat 8y ago
  That's like saying a woman can't leave an abusive marriage until she's secured a new husband.
- contravariant 8y ago
  You can criticise them for wanting to leave the EU for poorly justified reasons, however you can't really blame them for the execution.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > you can't really blame them for the execution I think one can. Britain is a democracy. An old one. If one votes for a dramatic departure from the status quo without asking how it will be executed, that's a failure of civic duty. Voters own a share in their democracies' successes and failures; economically, politically and morally.
- zeveb 8y ago
  Well, one might blame the EU for being so bad that a majority of the voters preferred the poorly-defined, widely-understood-to-be-potentially-dangerous option rather than remain. As an aside, I think terms like 'jingoistic' aren't helpful to discussion. I've never quite understood why it's jingoistic to prefer UK sovereignty but not jingoistic to prefer European sovereignty.
  - petercooper 8y ago
    "Jingoistic" has a specific connotation of aggressive patriotism. The typical Remainer's level of support for the EU rarely approaches such a level, and tends to be based upon seeing membership of the EU as a benefit to their country (in a similar way to being a member of the UN, say) rather than a replacement for it.
- Mrdarknezz 8y ago
  The average person could not possibly make an informed decision in this referendum, because it affects every area of every part of the brittish society. On top of that it has been proven that the leave campaign lied and broke the law regarding funding.
- collyw 8y ago
  There was a big promise of 350 Million a week to the NHS. That seems like a pretty reasonable thing to vote for. Unfortunately it was backtracked on within hours of the result. Is that really democracy?
- eudora 8y ago
  You can blame the Murdoch press (and others) in the UK for constantly pushing the narrative that the EU is a corrupt bureaucracy making absurd laws and stealing your rights and money. I mean, can you believe this? https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1800/1*piGY6KAwYsDSweClCmHeBA.jpeg https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1800/1*piGY6KAwYsDSweClC... https://s-i.huffpost.com/gen/1521502/thumbs/o-SUN-FRONT-PAGE-570.jpg https://s-i.huffpost.com/gen/1521502/thumbs/o-SUN-FRONT-PAGE...
mishurov 8y ago
this. I've never understood remaincucks who are not low wage immigrants.
- lucozade 8y ago
  As a well educated, highly paid remaincuck (seriously, are you 12?), maybe I can enlighten you. Something like 40% of our trade is with the EU. Having an open trading environment, especially for the things we do really, really well, is what helps keep the UK as one of the richest countries in the world. The majority of the UK runs at a loss. We have a significant number of high earners who come from abroad, many (most?) from the EU who contribute significantly to our tax base and productivity. The majority of the laws we've enacted, because the EU required us to, would have been enacted anyway. We're unlikely to change most of them materially post-Brexit. There are important exceptions, of course. We'll probably be a lot less nice to our rural community post-Brexit, for example, as they've received a lot of funding on the coattails of French farming unions courtesy of the CAP. The one big exception is with free movement of people. This was a big driver of Brexit and, although it's had a small, negative economic effect; it's had a huge negative political effect. But almost entirely of the "they're taking our jobs" variety. Something that doesn't really impact high earners (other than tradesmen are now cheaper and better). Now, I don't happen to think that Brexit will be a disaster. I just think it was stupid. It's dumping our economy back a decade and it'll take a decade to get back to where we are now. Also, as it's likely to royally stuff up our financial services and biopharmacy industries, we might end up with a more balanced economy by accident. I also happen to believe that, long term, the UK being out of the EU is probably the right thing to do. We've been a brake on what they've wanted to do for a generation. We're just not culturally aligned. But Brexit was a bad idea, badly executed. hope that helps.
- dang 8y ago
  Would you please stop posting unsubstantive and trollish comments to HN? Your substantive comments are great, but a lot of your other ones are obviously bannable stuff. We're trying to prevent HN from sinking completely into internet slime, and it's really bad when users who are capable of being good contributors keep pushing it in there. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

petercooper 8y ago

I don't think it's fair to blame leave voters They actively chose something that you say was poorly defined but which was widely understood to be a very dramatic and potentially dangerous shift for the country. If you can't blame them for picking a poorly defined option out of some jingoistic notion of what the UK should be, what can you blame anyone for?

7000skeletons 8y ago
You could probably blame the people responsible for the referendum in the first place, trying to use the notion of a Brexit vote as some sort of political brinkmanship game against the EU and then running for the hills when people didn't vote the way they expected them to. Like that David Cameron clown, for instance.
growlist 8y ago
> If you can't blame them for picking a poorly defined option out of some jingoistic notion of what the UK should be, what can you blame anyone for? How's the view up there on that high horse?
YouAreGreat 8y ago
That's like saying a woman can't leave an abusive marriage until she's secured a new husband.
contravariant 8y ago
You can criticise them for wanting to leave the EU for poorly justified reasons, however you can't really blame them for the execution.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > you can't really blame them for the execution I think one can. Britain is a democracy. An old one. If one votes for a dramatic departure from the status quo without asking how it will be executed, that's a failure of civic duty. Voters own a share in their democracies' successes and failures; economically, politically and morally.
zeveb 8y ago
Well, one might blame the EU for being so bad that a majority of the voters preferred the poorly-defined, widely-understood-to-be-potentially-dangerous option rather than remain. As an aside, I think terms like 'jingoistic' aren't helpful to discussion. I've never quite understood why it's jingoistic to prefer UK sovereignty but not jingoistic to prefer European sovereignty.
- petercooper 8y ago
  "Jingoistic" has a specific connotation of aggressive patriotism. The typical Remainer's level of support for the EU rarely approaches such a level, and tends to be based upon seeing membership of the EU as a benefit to their country (in a similar way to being a member of the UN, say) rather than a replacement for it.
Mrdarknezz 8y ago
The average person could not possibly make an informed decision in this referendum, because it affects every area of every part of the brittish society. On top of that it has been proven that the leave campaign lied and broke the law regarding funding.
collyw 8y ago
There was a big promise of 350 Million a week to the NHS. That seems like a pretty reasonable thing to vote for. Unfortunately it was backtracked on within hours of the result. Is that really democracy?
eudora 8y ago
You can blame the Murdoch press (and others) in the UK for constantly pushing the narrative that the EU is a corrupt bureaucracy making absurd laws and stealing your rights and money. I mean, can you believe this? https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1800/1*piGY6KAwYsDSweClCmHeBA.jpeg https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1800/1*piGY6KAwYsDSweClC... https://s-i.huffpost.com/gen/1521502/thumbs/o-SUN-FRONT-PAGE-570.jpg https://s-i.huffpost.com/gen/1521502/thumbs/o-SUN-FRONT-PAGE...

mishurov 8y ago

this. I've never understood remaincucks who are not low wage immigrants.

lucozade 8y ago
As a well educated, highly paid remaincuck (seriously, are you 12?), maybe I can enlighten you. Something like 40% of our trade is with the EU. Having an open trading environment, especially for the things we do really, really well, is what helps keep the UK as one of the richest countries in the world. The majority of the UK runs at a loss. We have a significant number of high earners who come from abroad, many (most?) from the EU who contribute significantly to our tax base and productivity. The majority of the laws we've enacted, because the EU required us to, would have been enacted anyway. We're unlikely to change most of them materially post-Brexit. There are important exceptions, of course. We'll probably be a lot less nice to our rural community post-Brexit, for example, as they've received a lot of funding on the coattails of French farming unions courtesy of the CAP. The one big exception is with free movement of people. This was a big driver of Brexit and, although it's had a small, negative economic effect; it's had a huge negative political effect. But almost entirely of the "they're taking our jobs" variety. Something that doesn't really impact high earners (other than tradesmen are now cheaper and better). Now, I don't happen to think that Brexit will be a disaster. I just think it was stupid. It's dumping our economy back a decade and it'll take a decade to get back to where we are now. Also, as it's likely to royally stuff up our financial services and biopharmacy industries, we might end up with a more balanced economy by accident. I also happen to believe that, long term, the UK being out of the EU is probably the right thing to do. We've been a brake on what they've wanted to do for a generation. We're just not culturally aligned. But Brexit was a bad idea, badly executed. hope that helps.
dang 8y ago
Would you please stop posting unsubstantive and trollish comments to HN? Your substantive comments are great, but a lot of your other ones are obviously bannable stuff. We're trying to prevent HN from sinking completely into internet slime, and it's really bad when users who are capable of being good contributors keep pushing it in there. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html