4 ms·

A yes/no referendum without detailing the actual approach to withdrawal is definitely not an election either.

by sveme 8y ago

denzil_correa 8y ago
I'm not sure why you have been downvoted. A referendum is a survey of the population. Most rigorous surveys, never ask a simple Yes/No question to the final objective. A survey questionnaire has a detailed set of questions which considers various aspects of the final decision. Ideally, these questions should be discussed and ratified within the parliament. Then, based on answers to these questions - you can have a next round of discussion in the parliament. You can decide to make your final decision for Yes or a No. It's almost as if we are intentionally ignoring all these years of progress made by science to solicit public opinion. Please note, I'm not talking about Brexit but the act of indulging into a referendum in general.
- sammydel 8y ago
  People voted "yes", which means "get me the hell out of the EU, I don't care how"
  - Khol 8y ago
    As someone who has actually interacted with leave voters it most certainly didn't mean that for everyone. Taking such an extreme position and then claiming that it's what the people voted for is farcical.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    And that can be criticized even if you support the right to choose. They should have cared how.
  - tobltobs 8y ago
    I don't believe this. All those brainwashed Brits have voted for stuff like: - There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside. (David Davis, 10 October 2016) - The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want. (Michael Gove, 9 April 2016) - Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards (John Redwood, July 17 2016) - The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history (Liam Fox, 20 July 2017) - Let’s give our NHS the £350m the EU takes every week. - A vote for leave will be a vote to cut immigration.
debacle 8y ago
The Friday in me wants to reply with "You need to vote on the bill, to know what's in it." But the actual approach to withdrawal was always going to be incredibly complex. There are obvious, valid reasons for staying in the EU and obvious, valid reasons for leaving the EU. Almost any headline coming from Europe is going to be anti-Brexit; almost every headline about the issue is going to be highly biased. The pro-Brexit arguments assume that the UK was getting less than it was giving to the EU - sacrificing money, border sovereignty, financial sovereignty for economic incentives that the UK is likely able to negotiate for anyway. The anti-Brexit arguments coming from outside of the UK are mostly impassioned moral attacks insulting anti-globalists, or fearmongering. The EU has been on a slow decline, and the Brexit may hasten that decline, along with renewed trade pressure from the US and China. Britain holds more cards than every other EU nation besides Germany. It doesn't make sense for them to lend their weight to non-contributing economies.
- 7000skeletons 8y ago
  I'm personally hoping that Brexit, combined with a lot of the more nationalist governments that are beginning to pop up across Europe, is going to lead to the EU moving away from the combined European government it's been angling towards and back to the combined economic network it originally began as.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  border sovereignty But here's the rub. The UK never gave that up. England (and by default Ireland) are not in the Schengen accord[1]. You cannot get into the UK from Europe without passing border control and showing your passport (Id for some countries). Even if you stretch that argument (our borders are porous and any EU citizen can move the UK to work) that argument still doesn't wash. You have to be documented and all. The UK never gave up control of their borders. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
  - growlist 8y ago
    The UK can only deny entrance to EU citizens under very limited circumstances, on pain of being dragged through EU courts. Does that sound like sovereignty to you?
SilasX 8y ago
But the referendum was just approving that some exit should happen and Parliament should work toward it, with no commitment to any particular approach.

A yes/no referendum without detailing the actual approach to withdrawal is definitely not an election either.

by sveme 8y ago

A yes/no referendum without detailing the actual approach to withdrawal is definitely not an election either.

I'm not sure why you have been downvoted. A referendum is a survey of the population. Most rigorous surveys, never ask a simple Yes/No question to the final objective. A survey questionnaire has a detailed set of questions which considers various aspects of the final decision. Ideally, these questions should be discussed and ratified within the parliament. Then, based on answers to these questions - you can have a next round of discussion in the parliament. You can decide to make your final decision for Yes or a No. It's almost as if we are intentionally ignoring all these years of progress made by science to solicit public opinion. Please note, I'm not talking about Brexit but the act of indulging into a referendum in general.

sammydel 8y ago
People voted "yes", which means "get me the hell out of the EU, I don't care how"
- Khol 8y ago
  As someone who has actually interacted with leave voters it most certainly didn't mean that for everyone. Taking such an extreme position and then claiming that it's what the people voted for is farcical.
- icebraining 8y ago
  And that can be criticized even if you support the right to choose. They should have cared how.
- tobltobs 8y ago
  I don't believe this. All those brainwashed Brits have voted for stuff like: - There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside. (David Davis, 10 October 2016) - The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want. (Michael Gove, 9 April 2016) - Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards (John Redwood, July 17 2016) - The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history (Liam Fox, 20 July 2017) - Let’s give our NHS the £350m the EU takes every week. - A vote for leave will be a vote to cut immigration.

debacle 8y ago

The Friday in me wants to reply with "You need to vote on the bill, to know what's in it." But the actual approach to withdrawal was always going to be incredibly complex. There are obvious, valid reasons for staying in the EU and obvious, valid reasons for leaving the EU. Almost any headline coming from Europe is going to be anti-Brexit; almost every headline about the issue is going to be highly biased. The pro-Brexit arguments assume that the UK was getting less than it was giving to the EU - sacrificing money, border sovereignty, financial sovereignty for economic incentives that the UK is likely able to negotiate for anyway. The anti-Brexit arguments coming from outside of the UK are mostly impassioned moral attacks insulting anti-globalists, or fearmongering. The EU has been on a slow decline, and the Brexit may hasten that decline, along with renewed trade pressure from the US and China. Britain holds more cards than every other EU nation besides Germany. It doesn't make sense for them to lend their weight to non-contributing economies.

7000skeletons 8y ago
I'm personally hoping that Brexit, combined with a lot of the more nationalist governments that are beginning to pop up across Europe, is going to lead to the EU moving away from the combined European government it's been angling towards and back to the combined economic network it originally began as.
CaptainZapp 8y ago
border sovereignty But here's the rub. The UK never gave that up. England (and by default Ireland) are not in the Schengen accord[1]. You cannot get into the UK from Europe without passing border control and showing your passport (Id for some countries). Even if you stretch that argument (our borders are porous and any EU citizen can move the UK to work) that argument still doesn't wash. You have to be documented and all. The UK never gave up control of their borders. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
- growlist 8y ago
  The UK can only deny entrance to EU citizens under very limited circumstances, on pain of being dragged through EU courts. Does that sound like sovereignty to you?

SilasX 8y ago

But the referendum was just approving that some exit should happen and Parliament should work toward it, with no commitment to any particular approach.