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Shame on them for choosing the wrong option. We should just stop having elections.

by sammydel 8y ago

sveme 8y ago
A yes/no referendum without detailing the actual approach to withdrawal is definitely not an election either.
- denzil_correa 8y ago
  I'm not sure why you have been downvoted. A referendum is a survey of the population. Most rigorous surveys, never ask a simple Yes/No question to the final objective. A survey questionnaire has a detailed set of questions which considers various aspects of the final decision. Ideally, these questions should be discussed and ratified within the parliament. Then, based on answers to these questions - you can have a next round of discussion in the parliament. You can decide to make your final decision for Yes or a No. It's almost as if we are intentionally ignoring all these years of progress made by science to solicit public opinion. Please note, I'm not talking about Brexit but the act of indulging into a referendum in general.
  - sammydel 8y ago
    People voted "yes", which means "get me the hell out of the EU, I don't care how"
    - Khol 8y ago
      As someone who has actually interacted with leave voters it most certainly didn't mean that for everyone. Taking such an extreme position and then claiming that it's what the people voted for is farcical.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      And that can be criticized even if you support the right to choose. They should have cared how.
    - tobltobs 8y ago
      I don't believe this. All those brainwashed Brits have voted for stuff like: - There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside. (David Davis, 10 October 2016) - The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want. (Michael Gove, 9 April 2016) - Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards (John Redwood, July 17 2016) - The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history (Liam Fox, 20 July 2017) - Let’s give our NHS the £350m the EU takes every week. - A vote for leave will be a vote to cut immigration.
- debacle 8y ago
  The Friday in me wants to reply with "You need to vote on the bill, to know what's in it." But the actual approach to withdrawal was always going to be incredibly complex. There are obvious, valid reasons for staying in the EU and obvious, valid reasons for leaving the EU. Almost any headline coming from Europe is going to be anti-Brexit; almost every headline about the issue is going to be highly biased. The pro-Brexit arguments assume that the UK was getting less than it was giving to the EU - sacrificing money, border sovereignty, financial sovereignty for economic incentives that the UK is likely able to negotiate for anyway. The anti-Brexit arguments coming from outside of the UK are mostly impassioned moral attacks insulting anti-globalists, or fearmongering. The EU has been on a slow decline, and the Brexit may hasten that decline, along with renewed trade pressure from the US and China. Britain holds more cards than every other EU nation besides Germany. It doesn't make sense for them to lend their weight to non-contributing economies.
  - 7000skeletons 8y ago
    I'm personally hoping that Brexit, combined with a lot of the more nationalist governments that are beginning to pop up across Europe, is going to lead to the EU moving away from the combined European government it's been angling towards and back to the combined economic network it originally began as.
  - CaptainZapp 8y ago
    border sovereignty But here's the rub. The UK never gave that up. England (and by default Ireland) are not in the Schengen accord[1]. You cannot get into the UK from Europe without passing border control and showing your passport (Id for some countries). Even if you stretch that argument (our borders are porous and any EU citizen can move the UK to work) that argument still doesn't wash. You have to be documented and all. The UK never gave up control of their borders. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
    - growlist 8y ago
      The UK can only deny entrance to EU citizens under very limited circumstances, on pain of being dragged through EU courts. Does that sound like sovereignty to you?
- SilasX 8y ago
  But the referendum was just approving that some exit should happen and Parliament should work toward it, with no commitment to any particular approach.
petercooper 8y ago
Quite. We shouldn't have had that referendum. We didn't need a referendum to enact the minimum wage, legalise gay marriage, or many other key positive shifts for British society, and nor have we had referenda for populist ideas like becoming a republic, removing the House of Lords, or reintroducing the death penalty.. so why we got a referendum for such a poorly understood and complex concept as EU membership is beyond me.
- sammydel 8y ago
  So you think people shouldn't have a say on whether the minimum wage should be raised or on whether gays should be able to marry. Because, obviously, whatever the elite chooses is going to be okay for you, right?
  - YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
    Who are the "elite"? I'm guessing they're not the elected representatives of the people, right? Otherwise, there wouldn't be a problem with them making the decisions they've been elected to make.
  - kevinh 8y ago
    People's rights shouldn't be up for vote.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      That sounds good but is ultimately an empty statement. Which rights are valid in the first place must be decided by vote.
  - petercooper 8y ago
    The people get a say by voting at general elections for parties that present a broad balance of deeply considered positions that reflect their views. This is why we have parties in Parliament and not just a giant bundle of one-issue politicians. People felt strongly enough about progressive politics and the policies that went with that to vote Labour numerous times in the 90s and 2000s. Anyone who felt so strongly about throwing the country into a tailspin by exiting the EU could have quite easily voted for the UK Independence Party in at least 2 general elections.
duxup 8y ago
California and other places have shown referendums can be be a mess. Sometimes you do need people in government who can at least know some of the lay of the land / consequences making decisions rather than the population voting on broad concepts that may not even get them what they want.

Shame on them for choosing the wrong option. We should just stop having elections.

sveme 8y ago

A yes/no referendum without detailing the actual approach to withdrawal is definitely not an election either.

denzil_correa 8y ago
I'm not sure why you have been downvoted. A referendum is a survey of the population. Most rigorous surveys, never ask a simple Yes/No question to the final objective. A survey questionnaire has a detailed set of questions which considers various aspects of the final decision. Ideally, these questions should be discussed and ratified within the parliament. Then, based on answers to these questions - you can have a next round of discussion in the parliament. You can decide to make your final decision for Yes or a No. It's almost as if we are intentionally ignoring all these years of progress made by science to solicit public opinion. Please note, I'm not talking about Brexit but the act of indulging into a referendum in general.
- sammydel 8y ago
  People voted "yes", which means "get me the hell out of the EU, I don't care how"
  - Khol 8y ago
    As someone who has actually interacted with leave voters it most certainly didn't mean that for everyone. Taking such an extreme position and then claiming that it's what the people voted for is farcical.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    And that can be criticized even if you support the right to choose. They should have cared how.
  - tobltobs 8y ago
    I don't believe this. All those brainwashed Brits have voted for stuff like: - There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside. (David Davis, 10 October 2016) - The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want. (Michael Gove, 9 April 2016) - Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards (John Redwood, July 17 2016) - The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history (Liam Fox, 20 July 2017) - Let’s give our NHS the £350m the EU takes every week. - A vote for leave will be a vote to cut immigration.
debacle 8y ago
The Friday in me wants to reply with "You need to vote on the bill, to know what's in it." But the actual approach to withdrawal was always going to be incredibly complex. There are obvious, valid reasons for staying in the EU and obvious, valid reasons for leaving the EU. Almost any headline coming from Europe is going to be anti-Brexit; almost every headline about the issue is going to be highly biased. The pro-Brexit arguments assume that the UK was getting less than it was giving to the EU - sacrificing money, border sovereignty, financial sovereignty for economic incentives that the UK is likely able to negotiate for anyway. The anti-Brexit arguments coming from outside of the UK are mostly impassioned moral attacks insulting anti-globalists, or fearmongering. The EU has been on a slow decline, and the Brexit may hasten that decline, along with renewed trade pressure from the US and China. Britain holds more cards than every other EU nation besides Germany. It doesn't make sense for them to lend their weight to non-contributing economies.
- 7000skeletons 8y ago
  I'm personally hoping that Brexit, combined with a lot of the more nationalist governments that are beginning to pop up across Europe, is going to lead to the EU moving away from the combined European government it's been angling towards and back to the combined economic network it originally began as.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  border sovereignty But here's the rub. The UK never gave that up. England (and by default Ireland) are not in the Schengen accord[1]. You cannot get into the UK from Europe without passing border control and showing your passport (Id for some countries). Even if you stretch that argument (our borders are porous and any EU citizen can move the UK to work) that argument still doesn't wash. You have to be documented and all. The UK never gave up control of their borders. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
  - growlist 8y ago
    The UK can only deny entrance to EU citizens under very limited circumstances, on pain of being dragged through EU courts. Does that sound like sovereignty to you?
SilasX 8y ago
But the referendum was just approving that some exit should happen and Parliament should work toward it, with no commitment to any particular approach.

petercooper 8y ago

Quite. We shouldn't have had that referendum. We didn't need a referendum to enact the minimum wage, legalise gay marriage, or many other key positive shifts for British society, and nor have we had referenda for populist ideas like becoming a republic, removing the House of Lords, or reintroducing the death penalty.. so why we got a referendum for such a poorly understood and complex concept as EU membership is beyond me.

sammydel 8y ago
So you think people shouldn't have a say on whether the minimum wage should be raised or on whether gays should be able to marry. Because, obviously, whatever the elite chooses is going to be okay for you, right?
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
  Who are the "elite"? I'm guessing they're not the elected representatives of the people, right? Otherwise, there wouldn't be a problem with them making the decisions they've been elected to make.
- kevinh 8y ago
  People's rights shouldn't be up for vote.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    That sounds good but is ultimately an empty statement. Which rights are valid in the first place must be decided by vote.
- petercooper 8y ago
  The people get a say by voting at general elections for parties that present a broad balance of deeply considered positions that reflect their views. This is why we have parties in Parliament and not just a giant bundle of one-issue politicians. People felt strongly enough about progressive politics and the policies that went with that to vote Labour numerous times in the 90s and 2000s. Anyone who felt so strongly about throwing the country into a tailspin by exiting the EU could have quite easily voted for the UK Independence Party in at least 2 general elections.

duxup 8y ago

California and other places have shown referendums can be be a mess. Sometimes you do need people in government who can at least know some of the lay of the land / consequences making decisions rather than the population voting on broad concepts that may not even get them what they want.