4 ms·

No offense, but many with criminal convictions are bad people. I know it may be nice to think otherwise. However there just are many people out there who are di

No offense, but many with criminal convictions are bad people. I know it may be nice to think otherwise. However there just are many people out there who are difficult if it not impossible to fully integrate into society. then you run into not society but government issues as well. just some examples my cousins run into all the time, they have to use temporary agencies to filter people and stock crews each week. Why? Drug convictions can ban them from some sites their company does work at. It can also jack their company's vehicle insurance and health insurance cost. Plus, go figure, those with more than one don't turn out to be good employees. They used to do direct hires, they even tried VA recommended people. some just hang on long enough to start collecting benefits again or meet eligibility requirements. they have good jobs to offer as do thousands of small employers do but they cannot afford the cost of that risk. but ignoring their hiring issues, occupational licensing which prevents competition in many fields can include clauses that block those convicted of a crime from entering a field and drug convictions doubly so.

ppeetteerr 8y ago
Many without convictions are bad people too. Having a record for MJ possession and sale is not the same as having a record for murder or even domestic abuse.
faitswulff 8y ago
> many with criminal convictions are bad people What do you do with "bad people?" Are they to be forever a drain on society? I agree that it's a government issue, but we should be rehabilitating our criminals instead of (just) labeling and punishing them: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/why-scandinavian-prisons-are-superior/279949/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/wh...
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  >What do you do with "bad people? I think he's usually using it synonymous with "deadbeats you don't want to hire anyway"
  - foxhop 8y ago
    I think our biggest problem is we bundle a huge part of the "criminal" spectrum together. The fact that we incarcerate for drug possession seems pretty strange. Petty crimes have way too high of cost in and out of prison. I associated with a boy in highschool who shortly after graduation murdered two unarmed people in their home with a sawed off shotgun. I would consider him a very bad person. Both the petty and the extreme carry the same label. Each join the untouchable class. I'm not sure how to fix that, but it's an issue worth solving
    - photik 8y ago
      I use to work in youth corrections. A gang unit I worked on housed one young guy who got behind the wheel drunk on his sixteenth birthday and accidentally killed someone, and another young man who contracted an STI from his girlfriend and decapitated her. These two young men slept 3ft apart and were treated equivalently by the system. You've pinpointed a major flaw that is mostly invisible to the public.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
bilbo0s 8y ago
>No offense, but many with criminal convictions are bad people... So are many people without criminal convictions. That's one of life's Great Aporias.
- Bjartr 8y ago
  For those like me who don't know, and aporia is an irresolvable contradiction.
scoggs 8y ago
Nothing makes one's life difficult and impossible to integrate into society like a criminal record for smoking a joint, eh?
andrepd 8y ago
>many with criminal convictions are bad people So are many people without criminal convictions. What's your point? I for one think that, say, the Walton heirs or similar rent-extracting landlord heirs are more of a drain on society than poverty-stricken kids selling drugs or making other bad life choices. Life isn't black and white, and further to the point data shows that rehabilitating criminals delivers better outcomes than shoving them into criminality schools (i.e. prisions), as it should be crushingly obvious by now.
- stanleydrew 8y ago
  This is true, but I think it's understandable that many employers will see a criminal conviction as a signal and make decisions accordingly. Is it a lazy approach to hiring? Yes. So is hiring anyone with an MIT degree just because of their credential. If the signal is imperfect and there are efficient ways to reveal whether the signal is valid or not then some market participant would likely figure out how to exploit that right?
  - toofy 8y ago
    I think what you, the parent post, and the grandparent post are showing is: When the signal indicates a high likelihood of risk involved with hiring someone convicted of nonviolent crimes, we have a fairly significant flaw in our system. As other threads have been discussing, if this is the signal that people are receiving, maybe the punishment based system isn’t working and we may want to investigate systems where rehabilitation based systems are seemingly showing more promise. This may help us shift what signals society is receiving.
Bjartr 8y ago
> many with criminal convictions are bad people. In addition to what others are saying, I'll also point out that many with criminal convictions merely made bad or stupid decisions many years (even decades) ago. To put too much weight on that is to commit the fundamental attribution error[1]. Further, in our justice system there are plenty of innocent people who were convinced to take plea bargains to avoid risking much worse sentences that they don't have a good enough lawyer to do them justice. This is especially true for poor people relying on overworked public defenders. Better to just take the six months than risk 10 years and not get to experience your children growing up. If any of what I've said above is untrue, I would love someone with more direct experience in the justice system to chime in. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
DrHuman 8y ago
As a person with some criminal convictions in my past due to substance abuse, but now ready to reenter the workforce, this mentality terrifies me. What is going to happen if I am not deemed "rehabilitated"? It reminds me of a quote that has stuck with me from an unrelated article: >Capitalism doesn’t just determine our source of income but how we relate to each other, our surroundings, and ourselves. To be rendered superfluous by the system is damning to social wellbeing as well as economic livelihood. https://qz.com/1269525/capitalism-is-unfolding-exactly-as-karl-marx-predicted/ https://qz.com/1269525/capitalism-is-unfolding-exactly-as-ka...
- lovich 8y ago
  In all honesty, I don't know of a single employer who cares if you were rehabilitated or not. They see a checkbox and filter it out. Your best bet is to move to a state with "ban the box" type legislation that prevents them from asking about criminal history until they've sent an offer. Those laws usually set up a regime around criminal history checks as well, that require companies to spend a decent chunk of change on compliance if they request criminal history. As most of these companies we're just being lazy and didn't actually care about criminal history they all tend to use cheap background check companies which give them the legal protection of having done a "check", but which usually find nothing that doesn't come up in 30 seconds of googling. The only companies that tend to do official background checks anymore are healthcare, banks, and government contractors. I have one friend who had a checkered past and hasn't had anything come up in their background check in the past 5 background checks he's done, so there is a way forward.
  - DrHuman 8y ago
    Thank you for the advice. This is exactly one of the reasons I just moved to Washington to look for work. The state supposedly just implemented strong ban the box laws in June.

ppeetteerr 8y ago

Many without convictions are bad people too. Having a record for MJ possession and sale is not the same as having a record for murder or even domestic abuse.

faitswulff 8y ago

> many with criminal convictions are bad people What do you do with "bad people?" Are they to be forever a drain on society? I agree that it's a government issue, but we should be rehabilitating our criminals instead of (just) labeling and punishing them: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/why-scandinavian-prisons-are-superior/279949/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/09/wh...

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>What do you do with "bad people? I think he's usually using it synonymous with "deadbeats you don't want to hire anyway"
- foxhop 8y ago
  I think our biggest problem is we bundle a huge part of the "criminal" spectrum together. The fact that we incarcerate for drug possession seems pretty strange. Petty crimes have way too high of cost in and out of prison. I associated with a boy in highschool who shortly after graduation murdered two unarmed people in their home with a sawed off shotgun. I would consider him a very bad person. Both the petty and the extreme carry the same label. Each join the untouchable class. I'm not sure how to fix that, but it's an issue worth solving
  - photik 8y ago
    I use to work in youth corrections. A gang unit I worked on housed one young guy who got behind the wheel drunk on his sixteenth birthday and accidentally killed someone, and another young man who contracted an STI from his girlfriend and decapitated her. These two young men slept 3ft apart and were treated equivalently by the system. You've pinpointed a major flaw that is mostly invisible to the public.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

bilbo0s 8y ago

>No offense, but many with criminal convictions are bad people... So are many people without criminal convictions. That's one of life's Great Aporias.

Bjartr 8y ago
For those like me who don't know, and aporia is an irresolvable contradiction.

scoggs 8y ago

Nothing makes one's life difficult and impossible to integrate into society like a criminal record for smoking a joint, eh?

andrepd 8y ago

>many with criminal convictions are bad people So are many people without criminal convictions. What's your point? I for one think that, say, the Walton heirs or similar rent-extracting landlord heirs are more of a drain on society than poverty-stricken kids selling drugs or making other bad life choices. Life isn't black and white, and further to the point data shows that rehabilitating criminals delivers better outcomes than shoving them into criminality schools (i.e. prisions), as it should be crushingly obvious by now.

stanleydrew 8y ago
This is true, but I think it's understandable that many employers will see a criminal conviction as a signal and make decisions accordingly. Is it a lazy approach to hiring? Yes. So is hiring anyone with an MIT degree just because of their credential. If the signal is imperfect and there are efficient ways to reveal whether the signal is valid or not then some market participant would likely figure out how to exploit that right?
- toofy 8y ago
  I think what you, the parent post, and the grandparent post are showing is: When the signal indicates a high likelihood of risk involved with hiring someone convicted of nonviolent crimes, we have a fairly significant flaw in our system. As other threads have been discussing, if this is the signal that people are receiving, maybe the punishment based system isn’t working and we may want to investigate systems where rehabilitation based systems are seemingly showing more promise. This may help us shift what signals society is receiving.

Bjartr 8y ago

> many with criminal convictions are bad people. In addition to what others are saying, I'll also point out that many with criminal convictions merely made bad or stupid decisions many years (even decades) ago. To put too much weight on that is to commit the fundamental attribution error[1]. Further, in our justice system there are plenty of innocent people who were convinced to take plea bargains to avoid risking much worse sentences that they don't have a good enough lawyer to do them justice. This is especially true for poor people relying on overworked public defenders. Better to just take the six months than risk 10 years and not get to experience your children growing up. If any of what I've said above is untrue, I would love someone with more direct experience in the justice system to chime in. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error

DrHuman 8y ago

As a person with some criminal convictions in my past due to substance abuse, but now ready to reenter the workforce, this mentality terrifies me. What is going to happen if I am not deemed "rehabilitated"? It reminds me of a quote that has stuck with me from an unrelated article: >Capitalism doesn’t just determine our source of income but how we relate to each other, our surroundings, and ourselves. To be rendered superfluous by the system is damning to social wellbeing as well as economic livelihood. https://qz.com/1269525/capitalism-is-unfolding-exactly-as-karl-marx-predicted/ https://qz.com/1269525/capitalism-is-unfolding-exactly-as-ka...

lovich 8y ago
In all honesty, I don't know of a single employer who cares if you were rehabilitated or not. They see a checkbox and filter it out. Your best bet is to move to a state with "ban the box" type legislation that prevents them from asking about criminal history until they've sent an offer. Those laws usually set up a regime around criminal history checks as well, that require companies to spend a decent chunk of change on compliance if they request criminal history. As most of these companies we're just being lazy and didn't actually care about criminal history they all tend to use cheap background check companies which give them the legal protection of having done a "check", but which usually find nothing that doesn't come up in 30 seconds of googling. The only companies that tend to do official background checks anymore are healthcare, banks, and government contractors. I have one friend who had a checkered past and hasn't had anything come up in their background check in the past 5 background checks he's done, so there is a way forward.
- DrHuman 8y ago
  Thank you for the advice. This is exactly one of the reasons I just moved to Washington to look for work. The state supposedly just implemented strong ban the box laws in June.