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> In your comment you state, without any source or reasoning behind your claims, that: > - Finite supply of currency is good > - Inflation is bad > - Bitcoin

> In your comment you state, without any source or reasoning behind your claims, that: > - Finite supply of currency is good > - Inflation is bad > - Bitcoin is "best money" > - Everything else is bad money My arguments aren't based on feels about what one might think as "good" or "bad", but just based on the undeniable fact that people are self interested. If it's a choice between holding my assets in a currency where they won't be devalued, and holding them in another where they will lose 1% or 2% annually, which am I going to chose? The people who care about the rich getting richer are really complaining that they aren't getting richer by the same ratio. They obviously won't if they think that the second option was a better choice. The rich already get richer. If they have money, they will invest it into other assets which offer them various levels of return, some more risky than others. People without money are traditionally excluded from these kinds of investment, and thus, their only for saving for the future is to put money into a bank account and let it have less purchasing power than the labour they put in to earn it in the first place. Bitcoin changes that completely. Anyone, even low-income earners, can put small amounts into Bitcoin and it will retain value in the longer term. They can completely shift their mental mode from high time preference into low time preference and begin investing in their own future. The idea that everyone needs to spend spend spend is not grounded in reality. It's necessary for governments to continue their bad policy making which only enriches the elite who print the money. High time preference is the source of inefficiencies, cutting corners and high debt. People should save rather than spend. People should spend more wisely in ways that are an investment into their own, and their descendants future, rather than borrowing from their children's labour through debt.

AnimalMuppet 8y ago
> Anyone, even low-income earners, can put small amounts into Bitcoin and it will retain value in the longer term. Will it? The one thing that Bitcoin has not been noted for is keeping a stable value. Even that's fine, as long as the value doesn't go down - nobody complains that the value isn't stable if the value keeps going up. And, Bitcoin has... um... had been doing fine on that front. Now it's not. And I don't see evidence that it will be a good store of value in the future. I hear argument, but the available evidence is not for Bitcoin being a stable store of value.
- sparkie 8y ago
  Take any point in Bitcoin's history and compare its value then to three years earlier. There is no case where it was worth more three years before. Sure, you can't predict the day to day price swings because the demand is not going to be predictable like the supply. The question is, will demand go up in the long term? But look at it another way. 1 Bitcoin is still 1 Bitcoin even after 100 years, and still 1/20999999 of the total number of Bitcoins ever created. It's an extremely stable store of value. Stability which was previously unheard of. The problem is that you are valuing it in terms of an asset that is far more likely to fail, given its current trajectory. You can't keep printing and borrowing forever.
  - CJefferson 8y ago
    Saying 1 Bitcoin is 1 Bitcoin isn't sensible. 1 dogecoin is 1 dogecoin. Hey, I have a currency, chrisbucks. There will only ever be 6 chrisbucks. Want one?
    - sparkie 8y ago
      Dogecoin is priced in Bitcoin though. Everything will eventually be priced in Bitcoin. And Chrisbucks are the reason why altcoins have no long-term value. If anyone can create coins then there's an infinite supply and their value will go to zero. Bitcoin is the only system which has not attempted to inflate the supply beyond the originally programmed supply. The original supply was necessary because it was the first asset of its kind. Everything else misses the point.
      - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
        > Everything will eventually be priced in Bitcoin. Objection, your honor. Assumes facts not in evidence. We get it, you've bought in to the idea that Bitcoin is the one true currency. (That's why a statement like "1 Bitcoin is still 1 Bitcoin even after 100 years" makes sense to you.) The rest of us, however, are not sold on this. We suspect that 100 years from now one Bitcoin will get you exactly nothing of value. Speaking to us from a perspective that Bitcoin is the one true currency is completely unpersuasive to us. If you want to convince us, you need to tell us something that makes sense in our viewpoint. > Take any point in Bitcoin's history and compare its value then to three years earlier. There is no case where it was worth more three years before. That's a decent attempt at doing what I asked for. Unfortunately, I find it less than persuasive. It's an asset that has a total history of 10 years; there's a pretty small sample size here.
bduerst 8y ago
I'm pretty sure nobody reading your comment is assuming people are irrational. A currency has many purposes, but the primary characteristic of a good currency is that people expect it to have about the same value tomorrow as it did today. Unless you're in finance speculating on arbitrage, you're not putting long term investments into good currencies, because rationally you expect to spend that money again. Instead, you put investments into assets. Something that bitcoin apologists like yourself fail to dissociate is the difference between currency and asset is crucial because both have different definitions of what makes them good. >Bitcoin changes that completely. Anyone, even low-income earners, can put small amounts into Bitcoin and it will retain value in the longer term. This is misleading and flat out dangerous to anyone who is reading your comment and takes up your advice. The price volatility, hundreds of hacked exchanges, and amount of fraud on Bitcoin alone proves this wrong.
- sparkie 8y ago
  You can't take the day to day price variance of Bitcoin as an indicator of anything at all. It is completely unpredictable and yes, if you intend to spend your money tomorrow, it is not the right currency for you. I'm not intending to give investment advice. People can take what they want from my comments. If you're waiting for the price to stabilize before you "invest" in Bitcoin, then I hate to tell you, but you're probably going to be paying a premium on it. The price of Bitcoin is only going to rise in the long term, and the earlier you get in, the less you'll be paying for it. Hacked exchanges and fraud have nothing to do with Bitcoin as a store of value. It's a case of bad security and decision making. Gold will also not retain it's value for you if you leave it lying on your lawn. If you take the necessary steps to make your Bitcoin secure and fault tolerant, they can be more robust against any kind of attack than Gold or cash.
  - bduerst 8y ago
    Ignoring the price volatility of an asset and the shear number of hacked/robbed institutions using it because you want it to be the most stable form of value store is confirmation bias.

AnimalMuppet 8y ago

> Anyone, even low-income earners, can put small amounts into Bitcoin and it will retain value in the longer term. Will it? The one thing that Bitcoin has not been noted for is keeping a stable value. Even that's fine, as long as the value doesn't go down - nobody complains that the value isn't stable if the value keeps going up. And, Bitcoin has... um... had been doing fine on that front. Now it's not. And I don't see evidence that it will be a good store of value in the future. I hear argument, but the available evidence is not for Bitcoin being a stable store of value.

sparkie 8y ago
Take any point in Bitcoin's history and compare its value then to three years earlier. There is no case where it was worth more three years before. Sure, you can't predict the day to day price swings because the demand is not going to be predictable like the supply. The question is, will demand go up in the long term? But look at it another way. 1 Bitcoin is still 1 Bitcoin even after 100 years, and still 1/20999999 of the total number of Bitcoins ever created. It's an extremely stable store of value. Stability which was previously unheard of. The problem is that you are valuing it in terms of an asset that is far more likely to fail, given its current trajectory. You can't keep printing and borrowing forever.
- CJefferson 8y ago
  Saying 1 Bitcoin is 1 Bitcoin isn't sensible. 1 dogecoin is 1 dogecoin. Hey, I have a currency, chrisbucks. There will only ever be 6 chrisbucks. Want one?
  - sparkie 8y ago
    Dogecoin is priced in Bitcoin though. Everything will eventually be priced in Bitcoin. And Chrisbucks are the reason why altcoins have no long-term value. If anyone can create coins then there's an infinite supply and their value will go to zero. Bitcoin is the only system which has not attempted to inflate the supply beyond the originally programmed supply. The original supply was necessary because it was the first asset of its kind. Everything else misses the point.
    - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
      > Everything will eventually be priced in Bitcoin. Objection, your honor. Assumes facts not in evidence. We get it, you've bought in to the idea that Bitcoin is the one true currency. (That's why a statement like "1 Bitcoin is still 1 Bitcoin even after 100 years" makes sense to you.) The rest of us, however, are not sold on this. We suspect that 100 years from now one Bitcoin will get you exactly nothing of value. Speaking to us from a perspective that Bitcoin is the one true currency is completely unpersuasive to us. If you want to convince us, you need to tell us something that makes sense in our viewpoint. > Take any point in Bitcoin's history and compare its value then to three years earlier. There is no case where it was worth more three years before. That's a decent attempt at doing what I asked for. Unfortunately, I find it less than persuasive. It's an asset that has a total history of 10 years; there's a pretty small sample size here.

bduerst 8y ago

I'm pretty sure nobody reading your comment is assuming people are irrational. A currency has many purposes, but the primary characteristic of a good currency is that people expect it to have about the same value tomorrow as it did today. Unless you're in finance speculating on arbitrage, you're not putting long term investments into good currencies, because rationally you expect to spend that money again. Instead, you put investments into assets. Something that bitcoin apologists like yourself fail to dissociate is the difference between currency and asset is crucial because both have different definitions of what makes them good. >Bitcoin changes that completely. Anyone, even low-income earners, can put small amounts into Bitcoin and it will retain value in the longer term. This is misleading and flat out dangerous to anyone who is reading your comment and takes up your advice. The price volatility, hundreds of hacked exchanges, and amount of fraud on Bitcoin alone proves this wrong.

sparkie 8y ago
You can't take the day to day price variance of Bitcoin as an indicator of anything at all. It is completely unpredictable and yes, if you intend to spend your money tomorrow, it is not the right currency for you. I'm not intending to give investment advice. People can take what they want from my comments. If you're waiting for the price to stabilize before you "invest" in Bitcoin, then I hate to tell you, but you're probably going to be paying a premium on it. The price of Bitcoin is only going to rise in the long term, and the earlier you get in, the less you'll be paying for it. Hacked exchanges and fraud have nothing to do with Bitcoin as a store of value. It's a case of bad security and decision making. Gold will also not retain it's value for you if you leave it lying on your lawn. If you take the necessary steps to make your Bitcoin secure and fault tolerant, they can be more robust against any kind of attack than Gold or cash.
- bduerst 8y ago
  Ignoring the price volatility of an asset and the shear number of hacked/robbed institutions using it because you want it to be the most stable form of value store is confirmation bias.