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>Tesla has pulled itself back from the brink and may actually become a profitable car company This is a very very generous assessment of the dire financial sit

>Tesla has pulled itself back from the brink and may actually become a profitable car company This is a very very generous assessment of the dire financial situation TSLA is in. At best they have hit their production at the expense of quality which will only temporarily offset their costs. Any sustainable mid-term profitability is a very big question mark at this point.

badloginagain 8y ago
I thought the narrative was they just need to get through the short term before production stabilizes and is able to meet demand. I do feel there is a difference between Tesla the car, and Tesla the company. Tesla the car is still the most desirable electric on the market. Tesla the company is a different story altogether.
- JoshCole 8y ago
  The narrative shifts constantly because the narrative is anti-Tesla. So it has to shift, whenever they make it past another hurdle. It started with them being ridiculous for even trying to make an electric car. Then it became that they couldn't mass produce. Now they are being mass produced. It sometimes shifts towards their safety, but it isn't a preferred avenue of attack because the stats show that the cars are safer than other vehicles, which produces cognitive dissonance in people who are mislead as to the true nature of the news they are hearing about Tesla.
  - michaelt 8y ago
    The narrative shifts constantly because the narrative is anti-Tesla. So it has to shift, whenever they make it past another hurdle. Or from another perspective, the narrative shifts constantly because the delivery date for my $35,000 car keeps shifting :)
    - badloginagain 8y ago
      Pay another $1000 for priority queueing!
    - JoshCole 8y ago
      That perspective would be a refreshing one, but the short interests which are pushing the current narratives are oftentimes not the ones who hope to see your car delivered. Their profits are maximized, not by the delivery of your car, but by volatility in the Tesla stock produced by negative news about a story stock. I'll give an example. An often repeated story about Tesla is that they are not making a profit off any vehicle they make. It's a false narrative of a very particular type with a very particular goal: it generates confusion about the benefit of infrastructure investment. It's clearly a false narrative. Investment in infrastructure is obviously a wise move for a company with ambitions as vast as Tesla. So why do you hear this false narrative? It comes down to the company being valued according to the assumption that the company will make these infrastructure investments. There is a causal link between the stock price and the infrastructure investment. If confusion and doubt exist about the value of that infrastructure investment, then it produces volatility which can generate money for the short position. In truth, these people should be disregarded. However, unfortunately, negative news tends to get more attention than positive news. So the news tends to end up favoring these short-interest fueled stories as a consequence. Plenty of people realize that climate change is real and that we all stand to benefit from Tesla succeeding in its mission. Many people don't realize that the majority of news about Tesla is being fueled by interests who stand to profit from causing harm to the company. The submarine of the ICE industry pieces on Tesla at least I think people are savvy enough to grasp fairly easily. They tend to have a more obvious structure, with the way a rival auto-industry expert will be brought on to breathlessly talk about how their competitor in Elon Musk is so crazy that he ought to be removed from leading the company or how electric vehicles are impossible or not ready or some other nonsense. Anything to harm their competition. They're just acting according to their own self-interest. But the amplification of confusion generated by short interests? It was much harder for me at least to understand where that was coming from. I thought the people saying it were idiots up until I got so annoyed with it I downloaded the analysis of Tesla by a firm that was shorting it in which they laid out the way Tesla was a story stock and explained its subsequent volatility. It was really eye opening, because I had expected them to be idiots saying things that were false because they truly believed them, rather than explaining that they figured Tesla would do well, but that their was potential to profit off volatility. It helped me understand the strangeness of the news. The pieces amplifying confusion have more to do with the profit model of news and its relationship with attention, rather than value creation, and some people being clever enough to abuse that. It's what motivated some of the interest Elon Musk had in going private. These things haven't been done under a rock. The Tesla board has called out the news for their amplification of these lies. Elon Musk has called it out. Plenty of green sector focused news have been calling it out. It's pretty sad that people are struggling to understand it. When tangentially related subjects have been brought up on Hacker News in the past, it was described as paranoia on Elon Musk's part. I guess its easy for Hacker News to understand the submarine that Paul Graham wrote about, since people read his writing, and harder for it to figure it out the rest of the bias, because someone didn't lay out the forces clearly enough. I'm not as good a writer as Paul Graham. I can't get across what I've noticed with as much eloquence. Hopefully people like him continue to be thoughtful and share their thoughts, so that everyone can benefit. Tesla is the most shorted stock on the stock market. Tesla is a leading player in electrification of transportation. Climate change is leading nations to ban ICE vehicles. Something about these three statements, taken together, is odd. People point to Elon Musk being a fraud, but meanwhile he was so effective in his role at SpaceX that the superpower of Russia can no longer compete with his company in the sector that it is focused on. People say he is incompetent to reduce dissonance, meanwhile his friends and engineers insist otherwise even in the discussions in this news item and even on topics related to engineering rather than business.
illumin8 8y ago
Tesla Model 3 is the most efficient and best quality electric vehicle I've seen. I've owned one for over 6 months now, and early on it was glitchy and needed a lot of software updates, but for the last 3 months it has been extremely rock solid stable, and I'm pretty certain this car will have great longevity. Not to mention, perfect 5 star ratings in safety from NHTSA. First, I don't like Autosteer (autopilot), as I think it is a little too sloppy because highway lane paintings are not very good in some places. It does much better when tracking a vehicle in front, but I prefer to be in control because it gets a little scary for me personally when I'm traveling 1 foot away from adjacent vehicles and going around a curve and expecting the car to steer for me... This is mostly a personal thing for me - I prefer to be in control of my own fate... you might feel differently. That being said, I love the Traffic Aware Cruise Control (TACC) - it's light years ahead of any other manufacturer, as it uses the Tesla computer vision system. What it does that is really amazing is that you can set the speed to +10 (which is what I do) and with one flick of the steering wheel paddle once you get on the freeway it will set your maximum speed to 75mph (in a 65mph zone; +10) and it uses the computer vision system to determine when it needs to slow you down due to a vehicle or obstacle in front of you. The amazing thing is that because it uses a computer vision system, it is smart enough to not brake when a vehicle is directly in front of you but you are going around a curve so you will never actually hit the vehicle. In other words, it keeps your maximum speed, with safe following distance, no matter what type of strange curve or oncoming traffic might normally fool it into emergency braking.
- brisance 8y ago
  Lots of other cars also have 5 star NCAP ratings. I’m willing to bet at any time a Subaru will be in that list. Adaptive cruise control and lane tracking are also not exclusive to Tesla.
  - JoshCole 8y ago
    Tesla safety record stats are better than the minimum required score for five stars. You can read an example of their pride/righteousness/aspiration in this truth/fact/reality here https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-model-s-achieves-best-safety-rating-any-car-ever-tested https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-model-s-achieves-best-safet... or here https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1042827334758260736 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1042827334758260736
megakwood 8y ago
Don't think that's the case -- did you listen to the latest earnings call? They're forecasting a cashflow positive Q3 with 15% gross margin on the Model 3s, and have sustained 5,000 M3 and 2,000 S&X per week for several weeks now. They even closed the reservation system and are taking orders for 2 months out.
- techstrategist 8y ago
  It’s widely reported (even among usually optimistic forecasters) that Model 3 production has stalled as low as 3k per week after the initial rush week. There are further questions regarding warranty provision that may be hiding significant costs which would impact that 15% GM. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/ * edit: typo

badloginagain 8y ago

I thought the narrative was they just need to get through the short term before production stabilizes and is able to meet demand. I do feel there is a difference between Tesla the car, and Tesla the company. Tesla the car is still the most desirable electric on the market. Tesla the company is a different story altogether.

JoshCole 8y ago
The narrative shifts constantly because the narrative is anti-Tesla. So it has to shift, whenever they make it past another hurdle. It started with them being ridiculous for even trying to make an electric car. Then it became that they couldn't mass produce. Now they are being mass produced. It sometimes shifts towards their safety, but it isn't a preferred avenue of attack because the stats show that the cars are safer than other vehicles, which produces cognitive dissonance in people who are mislead as to the true nature of the news they are hearing about Tesla.
- michaelt 8y ago
  The narrative shifts constantly because the narrative is anti-Tesla. So it has to shift, whenever they make it past another hurdle. Or from another perspective, the narrative shifts constantly because the delivery date for my $35,000 car keeps shifting :)
  - badloginagain 8y ago
    Pay another $1000 for priority queueing!
  - JoshCole 8y ago
    That perspective would be a refreshing one, but the short interests which are pushing the current narratives are oftentimes not the ones who hope to see your car delivered. Their profits are maximized, not by the delivery of your car, but by volatility in the Tesla stock produced by negative news about a story stock. I'll give an example. An often repeated story about Tesla is that they are not making a profit off any vehicle they make. It's a false narrative of a very particular type with a very particular goal: it generates confusion about the benefit of infrastructure investment. It's clearly a false narrative. Investment in infrastructure is obviously a wise move for a company with ambitions as vast as Tesla. So why do you hear this false narrative? It comes down to the company being valued according to the assumption that the company will make these infrastructure investments. There is a causal link between the stock price and the infrastructure investment. If confusion and doubt exist about the value of that infrastructure investment, then it produces volatility which can generate money for the short position. In truth, these people should be disregarded. However, unfortunately, negative news tends to get more attention than positive news. So the news tends to end up favoring these short-interest fueled stories as a consequence. Plenty of people realize that climate change is real and that we all stand to benefit from Tesla succeeding in its mission. Many people don't realize that the majority of news about Tesla is being fueled by interests who stand to profit from causing harm to the company. The submarine of the ICE industry pieces on Tesla at least I think people are savvy enough to grasp fairly easily. They tend to have a more obvious structure, with the way a rival auto-industry expert will be brought on to breathlessly talk about how their competitor in Elon Musk is so crazy that he ought to be removed from leading the company or how electric vehicles are impossible or not ready or some other nonsense. Anything to harm their competition. They're just acting according to their own self-interest. But the amplification of confusion generated by short interests? It was much harder for me at least to understand where that was coming from. I thought the people saying it were idiots up until I got so annoyed with it I downloaded the analysis of Tesla by a firm that was shorting it in which they laid out the way Tesla was a story stock and explained its subsequent volatility. It was really eye opening, because I had expected them to be idiots saying things that were false because they truly believed them, rather than explaining that they figured Tesla would do well, but that their was potential to profit off volatility. It helped me understand the strangeness of the news. The pieces amplifying confusion have more to do with the profit model of news and its relationship with attention, rather than value creation, and some people being clever enough to abuse that. It's what motivated some of the interest Elon Musk had in going private. These things haven't been done under a rock. The Tesla board has called out the news for their amplification of these lies. Elon Musk has called it out. Plenty of green sector focused news have been calling it out. It's pretty sad that people are struggling to understand it. When tangentially related subjects have been brought up on Hacker News in the past, it was described as paranoia on Elon Musk's part. I guess its easy for Hacker News to understand the submarine that Paul Graham wrote about, since people read his writing, and harder for it to figure it out the rest of the bias, because someone didn't lay out the forces clearly enough. I'm not as good a writer as Paul Graham. I can't get across what I've noticed with as much eloquence. Hopefully people like him continue to be thoughtful and share their thoughts, so that everyone can benefit. Tesla is the most shorted stock on the stock market. Tesla is a leading player in electrification of transportation. Climate change is leading nations to ban ICE vehicles. Something about these three statements, taken together, is odd. People point to Elon Musk being a fraud, but meanwhile he was so effective in his role at SpaceX that the superpower of Russia can no longer compete with his company in the sector that it is focused on. People say he is incompetent to reduce dissonance, meanwhile his friends and engineers insist otherwise even in the discussions in this news item and even on topics related to engineering rather than business.

illumin8 8y ago

Tesla Model 3 is the most efficient and best quality electric vehicle I've seen. I've owned one for over 6 months now, and early on it was glitchy and needed a lot of software updates, but for the last 3 months it has been extremely rock solid stable, and I'm pretty certain this car will have great longevity. Not to mention, perfect 5 star ratings in safety from NHTSA. First, I don't like Autosteer (autopilot), as I think it is a little too sloppy because highway lane paintings are not very good in some places. It does much better when tracking a vehicle in front, but I prefer to be in control because it gets a little scary for me personally when I'm traveling 1 foot away from adjacent vehicles and going around a curve and expecting the car to steer for me... This is mostly a personal thing for me - I prefer to be in control of my own fate... you might feel differently. That being said, I love the Traffic Aware Cruise Control (TACC) - it's light years ahead of any other manufacturer, as it uses the Tesla computer vision system. What it does that is really amazing is that you can set the speed to +10 (which is what I do) and with one flick of the steering wheel paddle once you get on the freeway it will set your maximum speed to 75mph (in a 65mph zone; +10) and it uses the computer vision system to determine when it needs to slow you down due to a vehicle or obstacle in front of you. The amazing thing is that because it uses a computer vision system, it is smart enough to not brake when a vehicle is directly in front of you but you are going around a curve so you will never actually hit the vehicle. In other words, it keeps your maximum speed, with safe following distance, no matter what type of strange curve or oncoming traffic might normally fool it into emergency braking.

brisance 8y ago
Lots of other cars also have 5 star NCAP ratings. I’m willing to bet at any time a Subaru will be in that list. Adaptive cruise control and lane tracking are also not exclusive to Tesla.
- JoshCole 8y ago
  Tesla safety record stats are better than the minimum required score for five stars. You can read an example of their pride/righteousness/aspiration in this truth/fact/reality here https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-model-s-achieves-best-safety-rating-any-car-ever-tested https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-model-s-achieves-best-safet... or here https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1042827334758260736 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1042827334758260736

megakwood 8y ago

Don't think that's the case -- did you listen to the latest earnings call? They're forecasting a cashflow positive Q3 with 15% gross margin on the Model 3s, and have sustained 5,000 M3 and 2,000 S&X per week for several weeks now. They even closed the reservation system and are taking orders for 2 months out.

techstrategist 8y ago
It’s widely reported (even among usually optimistic forecasters) that Model 3 production has stalled as low as 3k per week after the initial rush week. There are further questions regarding warranty provision that may be hiding significant costs which would impact that 15% GM. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/ * edit: typo