2 ms·

>Codes of Conduct are established sometimes without a problem actually existing in the community in question I don't understand the word sometimes. I have yet

>Codes of Conduct are established sometimes without a problem actually existing in the community in question I don't understand the word sometimes. I have yet to be shown an example where a woman, trans person, person of color, Muslim, or someone on whatever the oppression index is today was discriminated against when pushing code to a project. No one knows what you are unless you tell them - and it's always been 100% irrelevant to the topic of coding. This is absolutely trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist while flat out saying things like "we're trying to change the predominantly white face of programming"... wtf. >They're also often seen as a way to legitimize a "we can silence you for any reason we choose" behaviour that is far too frequent in community moderators. Because that was IMMEDIATELY what actually happened. I don't care one way or the other. I don't contribute to FOSS because my job isn't really conducive for that to be part of my activities. But I see people who are looking for a fight just to fight, and that's a bad idea.

scrollaway 8y ago
> [...] was discriminated against when pushing code to a project. No one knows what you are unless you tell them - and it's always been 100% irrelevant to the topic of coding. Well, we're not just talking about commit logs. Projects usually need discussion, and depending on the environment, that might be one where real names, professions, photos and various other bits of real life seep into (or are a pillar of). In those environments, discrimination can 100% be present. Saying "it's just code" dances around the issue IMO. > while flat out saying things like... That is also what I refer to in my post above. It's noise, not signal. > Because that was IMMEDIATELY what actually happened. You clearly have an example in mind. I don't. Keyword is once again sometimes. "Code of Conducts" are the software community rediscovering what we used to call "community guidelines" or "forum rules" in other fields. They're not necessarily oppressive or progressive. They're not necessarily helpful. And they're often unnecessary. They don't give enough credit to the positive message that "be good to each other" sends. They give far too much credit to bigots by suggesting that merely because "the rules say not to be a bigot", they won't be. Until I left, I ran a ~30k user strong gaming chat community. We still don't have "community guidelines", and the prevailing rule is "don't be a jerk". Very few people have been banned. (It is getting right about the correct size to introduce community guidelines, though) The health of a community is primarily determined by how it's moderated. If you allow bigots to be part of it, bigotry will run rampant. If you allow personal attacks to fly freely, it'll be a tense environment. If you start silencing any form of criticism, it'll turn into an extremist echo chamber. Either way, CoC documents tend to be just talk. Only recently, I tried to contribute to a project, only to be completely ignored and shut down without any discussion because the project owner didn't like my feature proposal. When I pointed out the owner's attitude didn't match what he promoted in the code of conduct he himself had added to the project, I was ignored.
- SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
  > In those environments, discrimination can 100% be present. Where? When? Because this came about on Linux specifically, where are the examples of someone refusing code or discussion because of another's physical traits... -OR- is this all at it's very base an accusation that can never be proven? (edit: Because no one is going to come out and say "I shut down this conversation because its a bunch of <derogatory names> just yammering") I think the obvious specific example is of Google's Ted Tso who was targeted to be banned from submitting - and at the same time breaking their own new code of conduct by smearing him as a "rape apologist". > Either way, CoC documents tend to be just talk. I'm not seeing that here, I'm seeing deliberate actions. My example above, Torvalds letter here. Are you seeing just talk? >Only recently, I tried to contribute to a project, only to be completely ignored and shut down without any discussion because the project owner didn't like my feature proposal. So, you're saying you were discriminated against because of some physical feature or that he just didn't like your proposal? If the latter, isn't that kind of how it's supposed to work? It's his project and if he doesn't like your contribution you're sometimes free to fork it, or make your own? There is no right for people to like you or your ideas. The internet would not exist if everyone's ideas have been given equal opportunity.

scrollaway 8y ago

> [...] was discriminated against when pushing code to a project. No one knows what you are unless you tell them - and it's always been 100% irrelevant to the topic of coding. Well, we're not just talking about commit logs. Projects usually need discussion, and depending on the environment, that might be one where real names, professions, photos and various other bits of real life seep into (or are a pillar of). In those environments, discrimination can 100% be present. Saying "it's just code" dances around the issue IMO. > while flat out saying things like... That is also what I refer to in my post above. It's noise, not signal. > Because that was IMMEDIATELY what actually happened. You clearly have an example in mind. I don't. Keyword is once again sometimes. "Code of Conducts" are the software community rediscovering what we used to call "community guidelines" or "forum rules" in other fields. They're not necessarily oppressive or progressive. They're not necessarily helpful. And they're often unnecessary. They don't give enough credit to the positive message that "be good to each other" sends. They give far too much credit to bigots by suggesting that merely because "the rules say not to be a bigot", they won't be. Until I left, I ran a ~30k user strong gaming chat community. We still don't have "community guidelines", and the prevailing rule is "don't be a jerk". Very few people have been banned. (It is getting right about the correct size to introduce community guidelines, though) The health of a community is primarily determined by how it's moderated. If you allow bigots to be part of it, bigotry will run rampant. If you allow personal attacks to fly freely, it'll be a tense environment. If you start silencing any form of criticism, it'll turn into an extremist echo chamber. Either way, CoC documents tend to be just talk. Only recently, I tried to contribute to a project, only to be completely ignored and shut down without any discussion because the project owner didn't like my feature proposal. When I pointed out the owner's attitude didn't match what he promoted in the code of conduct he himself had added to the project, I was ignored.

SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
> In those environments, discrimination can 100% be present. Where? When? Because this came about on Linux specifically, where are the examples of someone refusing code or discussion because of another's physical traits... -OR- is this all at it's very base an accusation that can never be proven? (edit: Because no one is going to come out and say "I shut down this conversation because its a bunch of <derogatory names> just yammering") I think the obvious specific example is of Google's Ted Tso who was targeted to be banned from submitting - and at the same time breaking their own new code of conduct by smearing him as a "rape apologist". > Either way, CoC documents tend to be just talk. I'm not seeing that here, I'm seeing deliberate actions. My example above, Torvalds letter here. Are you seeing just talk? >Only recently, I tried to contribute to a project, only to be completely ignored and shut down without any discussion because the project owner didn't like my feature proposal. So, you're saying you were discriminated against because of some physical feature or that he just didn't like your proposal? If the latter, isn't that kind of how it's supposed to work? It's his project and if he doesn't like your contribution you're sometimes free to fork it, or make your own? There is no right for people to like you or your ideas. The internet would not exist if everyone's ideas have been given equal opportunity.