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> I'm still not exactly the most empathetic person. > But I'm hoping I can at least 'fake it until I > make it'. This is great! If you ask me, "faki

> I'm still not exactly the most empathetic person. > But I'm hoping I can at least 'fake it until I > make it'. This is great! If you ask me, "faking it" is really just as good as "actually" being a more helpful or empathetic person. What do you think "actually" being a helpful or empathetic person is like? It's basically just continually expending the effort to be helpful and empathetic. Let's say my brother calls me up on a Saturday morning. He needs help moving some furniture. Do I really feel like doing that? Fuuuuuuuuuck no. Will I say "yes" anyway? Probably, because even though I'd rather play tennis or sleep or play video games I want to help him. So I will consciously expend the effort to go do the good thing for him. Am I being "actually" good there or am I just "faking it"? I don't really think there's a difference. Nobody really wants to spend a day off moving furniture for free. Same thing with reviewing a pull request. I am not known as a caustic reviewer, but that's because I spend the effort to try and make sure I'm not caustic. What is the difference between me consciously expending the effort and Linus consciously expending the effort? (I mean, y'know, besides Linus being 1000x more productive and talented than me) Is one of us more "authentic?" I would say there's no difference.

TAForObvReasons 8y ago
The best part was the next sentence: > Part of that 'faking it' is definitely going to be a filter on my outgoing emails That's about 95% of what people asked for over the decades. You can get your point across without incendiary language and belittling comments, and merely scanning for sensitive words is enough for most cases
- JohnBooty 8y ago
  FWIW - I don't know if there are FOSS implementations, but beyond simple word scanning (which I agree could be pretty effective!) there are also sentiment analysis tools out there.
taeric 8y ago
Depends entirely on how good you are at faking it. That is, if it can be easily seen that you are faking; then no, it is not as good. Not even close. Your brother scenario is silly. If someone calls and I don't want to help, but can. I'll be honest and make my own choice. If they ask if this is what I'd truly like to be doing, I'll always say no. However, in most cases, I don't actually care what I'm doing. Could I come up with something more fun? Maybe, but just being social in any way is typically its own ends.
- thetrumanshow 8y ago
  On the far end of the scale, if you always answer, "Would you like to help us carry this heavy stuff down these stairs?" with "No, in fact I would loathe that, but I will comply in order to maintain the social bonds that are necessary to sustain my chemically-driven life functions for the long term."... then that will be problematic for your relationships. I'm like you, I say yes often, and I'm honest about how excited I am to do it... but it comes at a social cost. Sometimes its better to fake it and be nice, even when you're bad at faking it.
  - taeric 8y ago
    I think I misrepresented. Most people just ask, "can you come help?" To that I'll answer how long it would take me to get over there if I can, and start heading that way. Few people ask "would you like to help me" do anything. The answers really are different. That is, you aren't faking it by being nice. You are just not bringing in extra crap to the discussion. Can you do dinner tonight? Yes or no. Not, I'd rather go do something with someone else, but if I have to be social with you, I can. It is tough, because society is actually highly rewarding on bringing extra crap to the discussion many times. In humor situations, everyone actually enjoys it. And for situations where there is a jerk, society actually rewards it by putting up with it. Linus has been a tough one. Often the community has relied on his behavior to help keep other jerks in check. People like to talk about how he is abrasive to nvidia, but they really are somewhat abusing the spirit of the crowd, as well. Problem seems to be that it is tough to know when to use a tool in your disposal.
    - JohnBooty 8y ago
      People like to talk about how he is abrasive to nvidia That's a really good point. Overlooked in this discussion over Linus' manners are the times when he was abusive toward people who arguably deserved it, like nVidia who has historically not been a great community member.
- chrisbrandow 8y ago
  To me the more important factor for whether “faking it” is adequate is what one’s motivation is. If it is merely as an act of fakery because other people expect something, then it’s a lot more like to be an act without merit. If it’s an integral part of striving towards being genuinely able to exhibit the behavior in question, then it’s a lot more likely to be received well.
cgriswald 8y ago
> If you ask me, "faking it" is really just as good as "actually" being a more helpful or empathetic person. It is important to make the distinction between this and what Linus actually said, which was "fake it *until I make it" (emphasis added). The latter is essentially practice or exercise to develop empathy. The former is essentially how high-functioning psychopaths work. > Let's say my brother calls me up on a Saturday morning. He needs help moving some furniture. Do I really feel like doing that? Fuuuuuuuuuck no. Will I say "yes" anyway? Probably, because even though I'd rather play tennis or sleep or play video games I want to help him. So I will consciously expend the effort to go do the good thing for him. > Am I being "actually" good there or am I just "faking it"? I don't really think there's a difference. Nobody really wants to spend a day off moving furniture for free. You haven't really made a comparison here, because you just say, "I want to help him." What is your motivation? You can definitely help him without having any empathy for him at all. Empathy doesn't mean "being nice" or "being helpful". It means understanding, feeling, or experiencing the feelings of others. Being an empathetic person is largely orthogonal to being nice. It can help you be nice, because you understand how people feel. It can also help you be a huge asshole, because you understand how to really hurt people.
- personjerry 8y ago
  In this case, what's wrong with being a high-functioning psychopath?
- JohnBooty 8y ago
  > It is important to make the distinction between this and what Linus actually said, which was "fake it *until I make it" (emphasis added). The latter is essentially practice or exercise to develop empathy. The former is essentially how high-functioning psychopaths work. Wow. Psychopathy is not a formally recognized or defined term, so it's hard to talk about without being completely sidetracked by trying to define it. While it's certainly possible to exercise all of the things we're talking about (empathy, kindness, etc) for nefarious purposes ("I'm going to figure out Mrs. Smith's feelings and try to understand them... so that I can get close to her and con her out of her life's savings!") I really don't think that's what we're talking about here. > You haven't really made a comparison here, because you just say, "I want to help him." What is your motivation? You can definitely help him without having any empathy for him at all. I'm saying they're the same thing. If you want to contrast them because you want to convince me that they're different, sure! Go ahead! That's your job. > Empathy doesn't mean "being nice" or "being helpful". Sure, absolutely. That's why I consistently mentioned them as being distinct things, ie "helpful OR empathetic." Seems like we're on the same page for this one.

TAForObvReasons 8y ago

The best part was the next sentence: > Part of that 'faking it' is definitely going to be a filter on my outgoing emails That's about 95% of what people asked for over the decades. You can get your point across without incendiary language and belittling comments, and merely scanning for sensitive words is enough for most cases

JohnBooty 8y ago
FWIW - I don't know if there are FOSS implementations, but beyond simple word scanning (which I agree could be pretty effective!) there are also sentiment analysis tools out there.

taeric 8y ago

Depends entirely on how good you are at faking it. That is, if it can be easily seen that you are faking; then no, it is not as good. Not even close. Your brother scenario is silly. If someone calls and I don't want to help, but can. I'll be honest and make my own choice. If they ask if this is what I'd truly like to be doing, I'll always say no. However, in most cases, I don't actually care what I'm doing. Could I come up with something more fun? Maybe, but just being social in any way is typically its own ends.

thetrumanshow 8y ago
On the far end of the scale, if you always answer, "Would you like to help us carry this heavy stuff down these stairs?" with "No, in fact I would loathe that, but I will comply in order to maintain the social bonds that are necessary to sustain my chemically-driven life functions for the long term."... then that will be problematic for your relationships. I'm like you, I say yes often, and I'm honest about how excited I am to do it... but it comes at a social cost. Sometimes its better to fake it and be nice, even when you're bad at faking it.
- taeric 8y ago
  I think I misrepresented. Most people just ask, "can you come help?" To that I'll answer how long it would take me to get over there if I can, and start heading that way. Few people ask "would you like to help me" do anything. The answers really are different. That is, you aren't faking it by being nice. You are just not bringing in extra crap to the discussion. Can you do dinner tonight? Yes or no. Not, I'd rather go do something with someone else, but if I have to be social with you, I can. It is tough, because society is actually highly rewarding on bringing extra crap to the discussion many times. In humor situations, everyone actually enjoys it. And for situations where there is a jerk, society actually rewards it by putting up with it. Linus has been a tough one. Often the community has relied on his behavior to help keep other jerks in check. People like to talk about how he is abrasive to nvidia, but they really are somewhat abusing the spirit of the crowd, as well. Problem seems to be that it is tough to know when to use a tool in your disposal.
  - JohnBooty 8y ago
    People like to talk about how he is abrasive to nvidia That's a really good point. Overlooked in this discussion over Linus' manners are the times when he was abusive toward people who arguably deserved it, like nVidia who has historically not been a great community member.
chrisbrandow 8y ago
To me the more important factor for whether “faking it” is adequate is what one’s motivation is. If it is merely as an act of fakery because other people expect something, then it’s a lot more like to be an act without merit. If it’s an integral part of striving towards being genuinely able to exhibit the behavior in question, then it’s a lot more likely to be received well.

cgriswald 8y ago

> If you ask me, "faking it" is really just as good as "actually" being a more helpful or empathetic person. It is important to make the distinction between this and what Linus actually said, which was "fake it *until I make it" (emphasis added). The latter is essentially practice or exercise to develop empathy. The former is essentially how high-functioning psychopaths work. > Let's say my brother calls me up on a Saturday morning. He needs help moving some furniture. Do I really feel like doing that? Fuuuuuuuuuck no. Will I say "yes" anyway? Probably, because even though I'd rather play tennis or sleep or play video games I want to help him. So I will consciously expend the effort to go do the good thing for him. > Am I being "actually" good there or am I just "faking it"? I don't really think there's a difference. Nobody really wants to spend a day off moving furniture for free. You haven't really made a comparison here, because you just say, "I want to help him." What is your motivation? You can definitely help him without having any empathy for him at all. Empathy doesn't mean "being nice" or "being helpful". It means understanding, feeling, or experiencing the feelings of others. Being an empathetic person is largely orthogonal to being nice. It can help you be nice, because you understand how people feel. It can also help you be a huge asshole, because you understand how to really hurt people.

personjerry 8y ago
In this case, what's wrong with being a high-functioning psychopath?
JohnBooty 8y ago
> It is important to make the distinction between this and what Linus actually said, which was "fake it *until I make it" (emphasis added). The latter is essentially practice or exercise to develop empathy. The former is essentially how high-functioning psychopaths work. Wow. Psychopathy is not a formally recognized or defined term, so it's hard to talk about without being completely sidetracked by trying to define it. While it's certainly possible to exercise all of the things we're talking about (empathy, kindness, etc) for nefarious purposes ("I'm going to figure out Mrs. Smith's feelings and try to understand them... so that I can get close to her and con her out of her life's savings!") I really don't think that's what we're talking about here. > You haven't really made a comparison here, because you just say, "I want to help him." What is your motivation? You can definitely help him without having any empathy for him at all. I'm saying they're the same thing. If you want to contrast them because you want to convince me that they're different, sure! Go ahead! That's your job. > Empathy doesn't mean "being nice" or "being helpful". Sure, absolutely. That's why I consistently mentioned them as being distinct things, ie "helpful OR empathetic." Seems like we're on the same page for this one.