3 ms·
"Natural tendency" does not mean intention. Few people intend to make minorities feel less welcome, but many more adhere to habits and cultural norms which have
by notacoward 8y ago
"Natural tendency" does not mean intention. Few people intend to make minorities feel less welcome, but many more adhere to habits and cultural norms which have that effect. Here's an example from right here a couple of days ago:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061725 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061725
Another example: where I work, I recently took someone to task for saying "your shit is broken" in a very public thread. It's a phrase I've seen too many times at this company. Sure, it might just seem casual to a California millennial, no big deal, but it can come across very differently to someone from a higher-context and more status-conscious culture - e.g. most of Asia, and therefore a significant portion of our workforce. It can have strong and lasting effects on their willingness to engage with you personally, or with the broader community.
Am I saying that we should all dumb down our language to the blandest common denominator? F* no. The important thing is to calibrate your behavior to the environment. If you know the people you're talking to, and the subject of the comment is not personal, let fly. Knock yourself out. If you're talking to someone you don't know, in front of many others you don't know, and the comment could be interpreted as personal (hint: if "you" or "your" is in it), then maybe you should apply a measure of decorum and cultural sensitivity.
- smoothy2 8y agoListen, I take a huge exception to the way you said things. As a minority (non-white) person, I don't need you to speak for me and me to be your pet. In fact, your attitude is highly patronizing and condescending, the fact that you don't see it, is problematic. Linux Kernel was being run ok so far. Sure there were rants from Torvalds which went overboard sometimes but accept it as a quirk of the maintainer and move on. Including this COC is a huge can of worms though. Now you can be Brendan Eiche'd out of any open source project. When that happens, perhaps you'll be celebrating a win for your progressive values but a more real happening at that point would've been loss of good open source software which some of your pet minorities could have used.
- notacoward 8y ago> As a minority (non-white) person, I don't need you to speak for me and me to be your pet. Nor was I making you one. There's nothing patronizing about pointing out how language can affect different people differently. Surely you're aware that others do need and appreciate people who will use whatever advantages they have to help raise awareness of these issues. Please don't use your own personal good fortune to promote an agenda that prevents others from following you up the ladder.
- smoothy2 8y agoI'm not sure you realize but this exact tone of discourse comes across as patronizing. Please stop playing messiah for minorities. Also, I'm not some super rich privileged person. As a matter of fact, I'm unemployed right now but privilege or no privilege, there's no reason to cripple good open source software which is already one of the most equalizing resources that has been produced by mankind.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago" there's no reason to cripple good open source software" Nobody is doing that. No one. That is not happening at all. I'm sorry, but people not being assholes to each other is not going to affect the quality of software in a negative manner.
- smoothy2 8y agoYou mean there is no loss of valuable contributions when people get Brendon Eiche'd for reasons unrelated to open source project?
- s73v3r_ 8y agoYou mean when someone openly says to their LGBT employees, 'You are less valuable. You are not deserving of the same basic rights as straight people. You are second class citizens'? Mozilla seems to be doing just fine.
- 8y ago
- ashleyn 8y agoAs another minority, it wasn't concerning to you that Eich actively lobbied against equal rights for a particular demographic? See, I'm tolerant of different viewpoints practiced consensually and privately; lobbying against those who don't affect your own life is a bit below the belt.
- gambler 8y agoI'm sure turning public forums into language/tone correctness minefields does miracles to encourage participation from people who aren't native language speakers and aren't keenly aware of nuances western socio-political background. Miracles.
- notacoward 8y agoPublic forums are already language/tone minefields. Non-native speakers already have to understand the dominant slang and tone cues to interpret what the "natives" are saying, putting the burden on them. Using neutral language isn't that hard, and helps relieve that burden. I never suggested replacing one set of codes with another. BTW, sarcasm is really helpful when dealing with non-native speakers. Your sincere concern for their well being just shines through.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- Vinnl 8y agoI think the point is that language/tone is already a minefield, and being aware of that can be of help to avoid triggering some of those mines.