7 ms·

Why do you feel it is "the natural tendency" to make minorities feel less welcome? My natural tendency -- and anecdotally, pretty much everyone I know -- is to

Why do you feel it is "the natural tendency" to make minorities feel less welcome? My natural tendency -- and anecdotally, pretty much everyone I know -- is to treat people well regardless of their race; to treat people the way you'd want to be treated.

notacoward 8y ago
"Natural tendency" does not mean intention. Few people intend to make minorities feel less welcome, but many more adhere to habits and cultural norms which have that effect. Here's an example from right here a couple of days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061725 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061725 Another example: where I work, I recently took someone to task for saying "your shit is broken" in a very public thread. It's a phrase I've seen too many times at this company. Sure, it might just seem casual to a California millennial, no big deal, but it can come across very differently to someone from a higher-context and more status-conscious culture - e.g. most of Asia, and therefore a significant portion of our workforce. It can have strong and lasting effects on their willingness to engage with you personally, or with the broader community. Am I saying that we should all dumb down our language to the blandest common denominator? F* no. The important thing is to calibrate your behavior to the environment. If you know the people you're talking to, and the subject of the comment is not personal, let fly. Knock yourself out. If you're talking to someone you don't know, in front of many others you don't know, and the comment could be interpreted as personal (hint: if "you" or "your" is in it), then maybe you should apply a measure of decorum and cultural sensitivity.
- smoothy2 8y ago
  Listen, I take a huge exception to the way you said things. As a minority (non-white) person, I don't need you to speak for me and me to be your pet. In fact, your attitude is highly patronizing and condescending, the fact that you don't see it, is problematic. Linux Kernel was being run ok so far. Sure there were rants from Torvalds which went overboard sometimes but accept it as a quirk of the maintainer and move on. Including this COC is a huge can of worms though. Now you can be Brendan Eiche'd out of any open source project. When that happens, perhaps you'll be celebrating a win for your progressive values but a more real happening at that point would've been loss of good open source software which some of your pet minorities could have used.
  - notacoward 8y ago
    > As a minority (non-white) person, I don't need you to speak for me and me to be your pet. Nor was I making you one. There's nothing patronizing about pointing out how language can affect different people differently. Surely you're aware that others do need and appreciate people who will use whatever advantages they have to help raise awareness of these issues. Please don't use your own personal good fortune to promote an agenda that prevents others from following you up the ladder.
    - smoothy2 8y ago
      I'm not sure you realize but this exact tone of discourse comes across as patronizing. Please stop playing messiah for minorities. Also, I'm not some super rich privileged person. As a matter of fact, I'm unemployed right now but privilege or no privilege, there's no reason to cripple good open source software which is already one of the most equalizing resources that has been produced by mankind.
      - s73v3r_ 8y ago
        " there's no reason to cripple good open source software" Nobody is doing that. No one. That is not happening at all. I'm sorry, but people not being assholes to each other is not going to affect the quality of software in a negative manner.
        smoothy2 8y ago
        You mean there is no loss of valuable contributions when people get Brendon Eiche'd for reasons unrelated to open source project?
        s73v3r_ 8y ago
        You mean when someone openly says to their LGBT employees, 'You are less valuable. You are not deserving of the same basic rights as straight people. You are second class citizens'? Mozilla seems to be doing just fine.
- gambler 8y ago
  I'm sure turning public forums into language/tone correctness minefields does miracles to encourage participation from people who aren't native language speakers and aren't keenly aware of nuances western socio-political background. Miracles.
  - notacoward 8y ago
    Public forums are already language/tone minefields. Non-native speakers already have to understand the dominant slang and tone cues to interpret what the "natives" are saying, putting the burden on them. Using neutral language isn't that hard, and helps relieve that burden. I never suggested replacing one set of codes with another. BTW, sarcasm is really helpful when dealing with non-native speakers. Your sincere concern for their well being just shines through.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - Vinnl 8y ago
    I think the point is that language/tone is already a minefield, and being aware of that can be of help to avoid triggering some of those mines.
beaconstudios 8y ago
the question of the status quo is itself politicised. One side (progressive sphere) says people who don't belong to the normed group (cis-white-hetero-male in US/EUR) are inherently treated worse, either consciously or unconsciously (bias), and conscious effort has to be made to overcome this. Another (classical liberal sphere) says that exclusionary behaviour are the exception and most people abide by the golden rule, and that bias is small or insignificant enough to be inconsequential. There are other interpretations but I understand these are the two canonical ones. If you belong to the former you may feel the need to be conscious of your behaviours to make sure you don't perpetrate feelings of "othering". If you belong to the latter you likely feel that you don't need to treat people differently based on intrinsic characteristics. This is really the defining ideological split of current politics, IMO.
- DFHippie 8y ago
  It is important to note that this isn't merely a matter of opinion. One can study the effect/presence of unconscious bias objectively and quantitatively. These studies have large error bars but they use conventional and accepted statistics. To the extent it is politicized, it's politicized the way evolution and climate change are: groups who are politically opposed have opinions about the consequences of these studies. One or the other group sometimes finds empirical reality to be in conflict with the arguments they wish to make in support of their preferred policies.
  - beaconstudios 8y ago
    note that I didn't suggest that the classical liberal side deny the existence of subconscious bias. Just the scale of the impact of said bias, and what can realistically be done about it (or, perhaps, the cost of attempting to correct it). There are probably people who deny the existence of bias and you're right in that they don't express a reasonable opinion.
  - tenaciousDaniel 8y ago
    Taken at face value, your statement seems to imply that if there is any research devoted to a topic using "conventional and accepted statistics", then no one can have an opinion on it.
notyourday 8y ago
Because people need a scapegoat. For those for whom it is not minorities, it is people who in their mind must hate minorities.
bluntfang 8y ago
If you are a white male working as a software engineer, your natural tendency comes from a place of privilege, and it's good to understand that fact and to understand that even if you think you're woke, you're still affected by the socialization of discrimination.
davidcbc 8y ago
Because it is human nature to relate more with people who are like you

notacoward 8y ago

"Natural tendency" does not mean intention. Few people intend to make minorities feel less welcome, but many more adhere to habits and cultural norms which have that effect. Here's an example from right here a couple of days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061725 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061725 Another example: where I work, I recently took someone to task for saying "your shit is broken" in a very public thread. It's a phrase I've seen too many times at this company. Sure, it might just seem casual to a California millennial, no big deal, but it can come across very differently to someone from a higher-context and more status-conscious culture - e.g. most of Asia, and therefore a significant portion of our workforce. It can have strong and lasting effects on their willingness to engage with you personally, or with the broader community. Am I saying that we should all dumb down our language to the blandest common denominator? F* no. The important thing is to calibrate your behavior to the environment. If you know the people you're talking to, and the subject of the comment is not personal, let fly. Knock yourself out. If you're talking to someone you don't know, in front of many others you don't know, and the comment could be interpreted as personal (hint: if "you" or "your" is in it), then maybe you should apply a measure of decorum and cultural sensitivity.

smoothy2 8y ago
Listen, I take a huge exception to the way you said things. As a minority (non-white) person, I don't need you to speak for me and me to be your pet. In fact, your attitude is highly patronizing and condescending, the fact that you don't see it, is problematic. Linux Kernel was being run ok so far. Sure there were rants from Torvalds which went overboard sometimes but accept it as a quirk of the maintainer and move on. Including this COC is a huge can of worms though. Now you can be Brendan Eiche'd out of any open source project. When that happens, perhaps you'll be celebrating a win for your progressive values but a more real happening at that point would've been loss of good open source software which some of your pet minorities could have used.
- notacoward 8y ago
  > As a minority (non-white) person, I don't need you to speak for me and me to be your pet. Nor was I making you one. There's nothing patronizing about pointing out how language can affect different people differently. Surely you're aware that others do need and appreciate people who will use whatever advantages they have to help raise awareness of these issues. Please don't use your own personal good fortune to promote an agenda that prevents others from following you up the ladder.
  - smoothy2 8y ago
    I'm not sure you realize but this exact tone of discourse comes across as patronizing. Please stop playing messiah for minorities. Also, I'm not some super rich privileged person. As a matter of fact, I'm unemployed right now but privilege or no privilege, there's no reason to cripple good open source software which is already one of the most equalizing resources that has been produced by mankind.
    - s73v3r_ 8y ago
      " there's no reason to cripple good open source software" Nobody is doing that. No one. That is not happening at all. I'm sorry, but people not being assholes to each other is not going to affect the quality of software in a negative manner.
      - smoothy2 8y ago
        You mean there is no loss of valuable contributions when people get Brendon Eiche'd for reasons unrelated to open source project?
        s73v3r_ 8y ago
        You mean when someone openly says to their LGBT employees, 'You are less valuable. You are not deserving of the same basic rights as straight people. You are second class citizens'? Mozilla seems to be doing just fine.
gambler 8y ago
I'm sure turning public forums into language/tone correctness minefields does miracles to encourage participation from people who aren't native language speakers and aren't keenly aware of nuances western socio-political background. Miracles.
- notacoward 8y ago
  Public forums are already language/tone minefields. Non-native speakers already have to understand the dominant slang and tone cues to interpret what the "natives" are saying, putting the burden on them. Using neutral language isn't that hard, and helps relieve that burden. I never suggested replacing one set of codes with another. BTW, sarcasm is really helpful when dealing with non-native speakers. Your sincere concern for their well being just shines through.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- Vinnl 8y ago
  I think the point is that language/tone is already a minefield, and being aware of that can be of help to avoid triggering some of those mines.

beaconstudios 8y ago

the question of the status quo is itself politicised. One side (progressive sphere) says people who don't belong to the normed group (cis-white-hetero-male in US/EUR) are inherently treated worse, either consciously or unconsciously (bias), and conscious effort has to be made to overcome this. Another (classical liberal sphere) says that exclusionary behaviour are the exception and most people abide by the golden rule, and that bias is small or insignificant enough to be inconsequential. There are other interpretations but I understand these are the two canonical ones. If you belong to the former you may feel the need to be conscious of your behaviours to make sure you don't perpetrate feelings of "othering". If you belong to the latter you likely feel that you don't need to treat people differently based on intrinsic characteristics. This is really the defining ideological split of current politics, IMO.

DFHippie 8y ago
It is important to note that this isn't merely a matter of opinion. One can study the effect/presence of unconscious bias objectively and quantitatively. These studies have large error bars but they use conventional and accepted statistics. To the extent it is politicized, it's politicized the way evolution and climate change are: groups who are politically opposed have opinions about the consequences of these studies. One or the other group sometimes finds empirical reality to be in conflict with the arguments they wish to make in support of their preferred policies.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  note that I didn't suggest that the classical liberal side deny the existence of subconscious bias. Just the scale of the impact of said bias, and what can realistically be done about it (or, perhaps, the cost of attempting to correct it). There are probably people who deny the existence of bias and you're right in that they don't express a reasonable opinion.
- tenaciousDaniel 8y ago
  Taken at face value, your statement seems to imply that if there is any research devoted to a topic using "conventional and accepted statistics", then no one can have an opinion on it.

notyourday 8y ago

Because people need a scapegoat. For those for whom it is not minorities, it is people who in their mind must hate minorities.

bluntfang 8y ago

If you are a white male working as a software engineer, your natural tendency comes from a place of privilege, and it's good to understand that fact and to understand that even if you think you're woke, you're still affected by the socialization of discrimination.

davidcbc 8y ago

Because it is human nature to relate more with people who are like you