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I question the professional experience of those suggesting that continuing to be an asshole is the preferable situation here ("but at least he's HONEST"). That

I question the professional experience of those suggesting that continuing to be an asshole is the preferable situation here ("but at least he's HONEST"). That would simply not fly at my company. It is absolutely possible to be kind when giving honest and constructive feedback and criticism. Empathy is a skill this industry needs to develop.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
> That would simply not fly at my company. Sure, but that's a terrible example because a lot of what goes on in companies is more about appearance than substance.
- alfredmuffin 8y ago
  Can't speak for others, but at my large tech company the push for empathy has demonstrably increased employee happiness. Naturally, the individuals who argued against these changes were older white male engineers too ingrained in their ways.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    > but at my large tech company the push for empathy has demonstrably increased employee happiness That says nothing bout the efficacy of the policy in terms of getting things done though. It is true that it is usually possible to be honest without being abrasive, however it is my experience that abrasive honesty is worth a lot more than polite dishonesty when it comes to getting things done. So in that way, "at least he's honest" makes sense.
    - alfredmuffin 8y ago
      Employee happiness is directly correlated with productivity.
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
        That may be, but there's a reason companies use metrics other than employee happiness to see how they're doing.
      - conradfr 8y ago
        As demonstrated in Amazon Fulfillment Centers.
iagovar 8y ago
Are there more Europeans here in HN? Because this hard push for empathy and stuff it just feels... weird to me. Empathy as the ability to see through your own biases and understand others POV is good in every setting. Empathy as a way to not communicate directly is just a waste of time. Most malicious people I've encountered in my career are the types that comes with smiles, corporate language and all that stuff.
- SolaceQuantum 8y ago
  You can communicate directly without also being insulting. You don't need to literally feel what other people are feeling (empathy) to not go out of your way to make people feel bad about themselves. I don't think there's a concern with 'Linus didn't wish everyone a good morning/didn't compliment so-and-so's code while suggesting changes' but with 'Linus insulted people to their face'. The former is cuddly, the latter is politeness.
  - vn100c 8y ago
    Mainly there are really nice people with no influence, Machiavellian sociopaths with smiling faces, the unperturbed who often come across as haughty and boring, and the Linuses. The haughty people often get more on my nerves than Linus.
- alfredmuffin 8y ago
  > Empathy as a way to not communicate directly is just a waste of time It is this attitude that drives people, and especially women and minorities, away from tech.
  - iagovar 8y ago
    I work with women, I don't think they are that stupid they cannot handle it. It must be something else. Definitely none of them cried or left because we get to the point in the meetings, or I don't compliment them before criticizing their work. I think not working like this may be even weird for some of my foreign coworkers.
arayh 8y ago
Absolutely! This reminds me of https://compassionatecoding.com/ https://compassionatecoding.com/ - there's a lot to be said about this industry and the "cold" work environments that are associated to it. I support the compassionate coding movement. Software engineers should support and help each other improve as a whole. It creates a much better work culture and more effective team communication.
- alfredmuffin 8y ago
  Every company needs to adopt this movement. I wish the HN community weren't so rooted in their toxicity, and just recognized the need for industry-wide change.
  - furgooswft13 8y ago
    That's not a movement, it's a buzzword laden sales pitch for a consulting service. Yes the industry needs change, but in the way of having less bullshit, not more.
Iem6gaoc 8y ago
> Empathy is a skill this industry needs to develop. If empathy is a critical skill that can be developed, then it should be made part of the school curriculum and graded.
maxk42 8y ago
This isn't a company. It's an all-volunteer force. And educating people with four-letter words is a highly effective way to get people to fall in line with your culture, rather than allowing them to go around half-cocked all the time. A well-placed "fuck you" keeps people humble. Spare the rod and all that. 20 years experience, C-level, and my direct reports love me.
- alfredmuffin 8y ago
  The toxicity is seeping.
- robin_reala 8y ago
  Or possibly the only people subservient enough to put up with that sort of behaviour are the ones that also fawn at your feet? I’d be out of a company like a shot and letting HR know why on the way past if a manager tried to pull that on me.
- BeetleB 8y ago
  >A well-placed "fuck you" keeps people humble. Spare the rod and all that. >20 years experience, C-level, and my direct reports love me. I was once part of a volunteer group that had a lot of nastiness. I learned one thing from it. The way to get a group that is very harmonious and on the same page is to ensure the leader is a big enough jerk that whoever disagrees eventually leaves. Those who remain are of the same mindset as the leader.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago

> That would simply not fly at my company. Sure, but that's a terrible example because a lot of what goes on in companies is more about appearance than substance.

alfredmuffin 8y ago
Can't speak for others, but at my large tech company the push for empathy has demonstrably increased employee happiness. Naturally, the individuals who argued against these changes were older white male engineers too ingrained in their ways.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  > but at my large tech company the push for empathy has demonstrably increased employee happiness That says nothing bout the efficacy of the policy in terms of getting things done though. It is true that it is usually possible to be honest without being abrasive, however it is my experience that abrasive honesty is worth a lot more than polite dishonesty when it comes to getting things done. So in that way, "at least he's honest" makes sense.
  - alfredmuffin 8y ago
    Employee happiness is directly correlated with productivity.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
      That may be, but there's a reason companies use metrics other than employee happiness to see how they're doing.
    - conradfr 8y ago
      As demonstrated in Amazon Fulfillment Centers.

iagovar 8y ago

Are there more Europeans here in HN? Because this hard push for empathy and stuff it just feels... weird to me. Empathy as the ability to see through your own biases and understand others POV is good in every setting. Empathy as a way to not communicate directly is just a waste of time. Most malicious people I've encountered in my career are the types that comes with smiles, corporate language and all that stuff.

SolaceQuantum 8y ago
You can communicate directly without also being insulting. You don't need to literally feel what other people are feeling (empathy) to not go out of your way to make people feel bad about themselves. I don't think there's a concern with 'Linus didn't wish everyone a good morning/didn't compliment so-and-so's code while suggesting changes' but with 'Linus insulted people to their face'. The former is cuddly, the latter is politeness.
- vn100c 8y ago
  Mainly there are really nice people with no influence, Machiavellian sociopaths with smiling faces, the unperturbed who often come across as haughty and boring, and the Linuses. The haughty people often get more on my nerves than Linus.
alfredmuffin 8y ago
> Empathy as a way to not communicate directly is just a waste of time It is this attitude that drives people, and especially women and minorities, away from tech.
- iagovar 8y ago
  I work with women, I don't think they are that stupid they cannot handle it. It must be something else. Definitely none of them cried or left because we get to the point in the meetings, or I don't compliment them before criticizing their work. I think not working like this may be even weird for some of my foreign coworkers.

arayh 8y ago

Absolutely! This reminds me of https://compassionatecoding.com/ https://compassionatecoding.com/ - there's a lot to be said about this industry and the "cold" work environments that are associated to it. I support the compassionate coding movement. Software engineers should support and help each other improve as a whole. It creates a much better work culture and more effective team communication.

alfredmuffin 8y ago
Every company needs to adopt this movement. I wish the HN community weren't so rooted in their toxicity, and just recognized the need for industry-wide change.
- furgooswft13 8y ago
  That's not a movement, it's a buzzword laden sales pitch for a consulting service. Yes the industry needs change, but in the way of having less bullshit, not more.

Iem6gaoc 8y ago

> Empathy is a skill this industry needs to develop. If empathy is a critical skill that can be developed, then it should be made part of the school curriculum and graded.

maxk42 8y ago

This isn't a company. It's an all-volunteer force. And educating people with four-letter words is a highly effective way to get people to fall in line with your culture, rather than allowing them to go around half-cocked all the time. A well-placed "fuck you" keeps people humble. Spare the rod and all that. 20 years experience, C-level, and my direct reports love me.

alfredmuffin 8y ago
The toxicity is seeping.
robin_reala 8y ago
Or possibly the only people subservient enough to put up with that sort of behaviour are the ones that also fawn at your feet? I’d be out of a company like a shot and letting HR know why on the way past if a manager tried to pull that on me.
BeetleB 8y ago
>A well-placed "fuck you" keeps people humble. Spare the rod and all that. >20 years experience, C-level, and my direct reports love me. I was once part of a volunteer group that had a lot of nastiness. I learned one thing from it. The way to get a group that is very harmonious and on the same page is to ensure the leader is a big enough jerk that whoever disagrees eventually leaves. Those who remain are of the same mindset as the leader.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]