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> I do have concerns about the CoC being used for political purposes That's the CoC's entire purpose. Its author (the same person behind the post-meritocracy m

> I do have concerns about the CoC being used for political purposes That's the CoC's entire purpose. Its author (the same person behind the post-meritocracy manifesto) has said that yes, the CoC is a political document.

NikolaNovak 8y ago
What is a "post-meritocracy manifesto"? It sounds... opposite from everything I thought we've all been fighting for in the tech community, but I could be wrong? :-S
- steve_taylor 8y ago
  The Post-Meritocracy Manifesto: https://postmeritocracy.org/ https://postmeritocracy.org/ Author and signatory #1 is the same as the Contributor Covenant, which is the CoC adopted by the Linux Kernel.
  - NikolaNovak 8y ago
    Thanks for the link! Upon my first read, as I frequently find is the case, I either agree or disagree with it, based on unfortunately unspecified context and goals. I feel in general many manifestos, value statements, etc (generally focusing on "how do we accomplish something") would benefit from stating goals ("what are we trying to accomplish"). Once we agree on the goals, we can more objectively (if not perfectly objectively) discuss do these methods and statements move us toward these goals. In general life, absolutely, I'll agree with most or maybe even all statements. I wouldn't even find them particularly controversial. Communication can be as important as technical skills - sure, I live that every day. We need to understand privilege, and enable everybody - absolutely. True on vast majority of projects in vast majority of contexts I've been part of. Etc But not all: If (for an extreme example) the context is a small highly proficient working group and goal is an unprecedented technical achievement, majority of these are either unproductive or counterproductive to the goal and the context. If you have three people in the world that understand math to accomplish this project, and your goal is to accomplish this project, you need to involve at least one of the three people in this project - their background, communication skillset, and other aspects notwithstanding. So stating goals is I find critical in evaluating methods to accomplish those goals.
- nsmith14 8y ago
  You're not wrong. It means diversity quotas are being pushed and excellence is no longer pursued (or at least it's not the first metric).
  - RVuRnvbM2e 8y ago
    No. Its recognition of the fact that "meritocracy" is a satirical myth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy
    - inawarminister 8y ago
      Meritocracy underlines the very system of capitalism, though. It's not ideal, but it is what it is. Capitalism rewards meritocracy in the local maxima.
      - UncleMeat 8y ago
        Was capitalism meritocratic in 1920?
zellyn 8y ago
Of course a Code of Conduct is a political document.
- nailer 8y ago
  That's worrying, it shouldn't be. - Ethics are things the overwhelming majority of humans agree on. - Politics are not. Edit for 'edent' below due to rate limit: Were you replying to someone else? My comment mentioned the majority of people agree on ethics. Racial, gender, sexual preference and religious discrimination isn't considered OK in most western countries. Additionally, you're derailing the discussion by talking about discrimination. The entire reason this thread was started was because there's concern that that the CoC doesn't merely ensure ethics, but (as mentioned in the examples in this thread) has been used to harass people for what most humans would consider ethical behavior.
  - steve_taylor 8y ago
    I would at least say it needn't be. Can we not set out rules for an open source community to follow without enumerating the pet peeves and favourite protected classes in descending order of importance to the document's author?
  - zellyn 8y ago
    Anything that seeks to organize a group of humans is fundamentally political. A code of conduct that seeks to govern or guide how people interact is political. The de-facto emergent norms of how people interact _without_ a code of conduct in place are political. The way people organize and structure power and influence without rules is political. The way people organize and structure power and influence with rules is political. Putting your hands over your eyes and ears and trying to be "non-political" just means you're accepting the de-facto politics that emerge. It probably also means they're working pretty well, for you. Of course, none of that means that heavy-handed, oppressive politicking used as a weapon to increase power is good. There are at least two opposites of doing something badly: not doing it at all, or doing it well. I'd argue that you can't _not_ do politics, so you should try to do it well.
  - 8y ago
nalllar 8y ago
Being political isn't a problem. Free Software is political. mjg59 put this far better than I could: > A reminder that free software is fundamentally about breaking down barriers preventing people from participating in a social endeavour that grants them more control over their computers, and anyone who argues against that process is not helping the cause of free software > Some of those barriers are technical (DRM, proprietary software, undocumented hardware) and some are social (unwelcoming communities, abusive maintainers). You don't get to focus on one category and deny the other. > Alleged free software advocates who defend abusive individuals aren't helping the cause of free software by doing so. Push back. > "If anything deserves a reward, it is social contribution" - the GNU manifesto by Richard Stallman, 1985. https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/1042709376442687490 https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/1042709376442687490
- nailer 8y ago
  mjg's quote was concerning ethics and abuse, and does not mention politics. The concern is that the CoC itself may be used to abuse individuals. Asides from the Tso example, there was someone else harassed because, outside of a project, they expressed a sexual preference for male dominant/female submissive roles.
  - pseudalopex 8y ago
    Can you explain what you mean about Ted Ts'o? I know there's a story going around that people are calling him a rape apologist because he didn't endorse the CoC. People have called him a rape apologist for years because of arguments he made about rape. If your other example is Larry Garfield, he's part of a subculture that's controversial even in BDSM circles, and he insisted on bringing elements of that subculture into technical events. Also, the official position seems to be that he didn't actually violate Drupal's code of conduct, but they removed him anyway.
- AllegedAlec 8y ago
  Where in the definition of FOSS does it say anything about breaking down barriers? Neither the definition of free software nor the definition of open software said anything about that. Unless that guy somehow would provide something that indicates that there's a consensus about his definition of FOSS being the correct one, it's just another person trying to push his own values as the values of an entire group.
pommed 8y ago
The CoC is a form of identity politics that is enforced upon already-inclusive communities, to make them thread on thin ice. Being against the CoC, means that, in today's climate of polarization, you are against inclusiveness. So I am going to be unreasonable about it: The only reason "body size" is mentioned, is because the author is fat. The only reason why "gender identity and expression" is mentioned, is because the author is trans. For most of these cases, a simple "don't discriminate on disability" would suffice. Then there is the extremely wide scope: A document that is supposed to make sure that pull requests and issues are dealt with without too much assholes, also polices appearances of its authors on social media and conferences. Meanwhile there is no place in the manifesto for neurodiversity: Autistic people with low emotional intelligence. These CoC's are pushed in through the back, by activists. Just like those that went out of their way to pressure maintainers of computer vision software to remove "lena.jpg" (A modeling woman now working with disabled people to do data entry) and change her with a picture of Grace Hopper (A soldier who happened to be woman, making sure that space remains US-only). Everybody is welcome to contribute to my all-inclusive software! Nazi's, Antifa's, racists, conservatives, democrats, soldiers, peace keepers, freedom fighters, they's, fat people, skinny people, fat-hating people. If you act professional: I would never know: It is not like I would go to the Twitter of the one that made a PR to check out their identity politics (or lack thereof). There is another group doing that though... If the CoC would be appended to the open source software licenses on my projects, than it would not be open source anymore, I would not be free to do with the software whatever I want.
- nalllar 8y ago
  > The only reason "body size" is mentioned, is because the author is fat. The only reason why "gender identity and expression" is mentioned, is because the author is trans. For most of these cases, a simple "don't discriminate on disability" would suffice. Is being fat or trans a disability? :/
  - pommed 8y ago
    Yes. Morbid obesity (as a disease, not self-inflicted) qualifies as a disability for social security. Transsexuality falls under gender dysphoria (as a hormonal disease, not psychological). If you have reasonable recourse it is not a disability, and only you can help alleviate any (perceived) discrimination. The question then remains: Does Linus have reasonable recourse to change his harsh behavior, or is this who he is by nature? If it is who he is by nature, then this CoC is bullying him for something he can't change.

NikolaNovak 8y ago

What is a "post-meritocracy manifesto"? It sounds... opposite from everything I thought we've all been fighting for in the tech community, but I could be wrong? :-S

steve_taylor 8y ago
The Post-Meritocracy Manifesto: https://postmeritocracy.org/ https://postmeritocracy.org/ Author and signatory #1 is the same as the Contributor Covenant, which is the CoC adopted by the Linux Kernel.
- NikolaNovak 8y ago
  Thanks for the link! Upon my first read, as I frequently find is the case, I either agree or disagree with it, based on unfortunately unspecified context and goals. I feel in general many manifestos, value statements, etc (generally focusing on "how do we accomplish something") would benefit from stating goals ("what are we trying to accomplish"). Once we agree on the goals, we can more objectively (if not perfectly objectively) discuss do these methods and statements move us toward these goals. In general life, absolutely, I'll agree with most or maybe even all statements. I wouldn't even find them particularly controversial. Communication can be as important as technical skills - sure, I live that every day. We need to understand privilege, and enable everybody - absolutely. True on vast majority of projects in vast majority of contexts I've been part of. Etc But not all: If (for an extreme example) the context is a small highly proficient working group and goal is an unprecedented technical achievement, majority of these are either unproductive or counterproductive to the goal and the context. If you have three people in the world that understand math to accomplish this project, and your goal is to accomplish this project, you need to involve at least one of the three people in this project - their background, communication skillset, and other aspects notwithstanding. So stating goals is I find critical in evaluating methods to accomplish those goals.
nsmith14 8y ago
You're not wrong. It means diversity quotas are being pushed and excellence is no longer pursued (or at least it's not the first metric).
- RVuRnvbM2e 8y ago
  No. Its recognition of the fact that "meritocracy" is a satirical myth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy
  - inawarminister 8y ago
    Meritocracy underlines the very system of capitalism, though. It's not ideal, but it is what it is. Capitalism rewards meritocracy in the local maxima.
    - UncleMeat 8y ago
      Was capitalism meritocratic in 1920?

zellyn 8y ago

Of course a Code of Conduct is a political document.

nailer 8y ago
That's worrying, it shouldn't be. - Ethics are things the overwhelming majority of humans agree on. - Politics are not. Edit for 'edent' below due to rate limit: Were you replying to someone else? My comment mentioned the majority of people agree on ethics. Racial, gender, sexual preference and religious discrimination isn't considered OK in most western countries. Additionally, you're derailing the discussion by talking about discrimination. The entire reason this thread was started was because there's concern that that the CoC doesn't merely ensure ethics, but (as mentioned in the examples in this thread) has been used to harass people for what most humans would consider ethical behavior.
- steve_taylor 8y ago
  I would at least say it needn't be. Can we not set out rules for an open source community to follow without enumerating the pet peeves and favourite protected classes in descending order of importance to the document's author?
- zellyn 8y ago
  Anything that seeks to organize a group of humans is fundamentally political. A code of conduct that seeks to govern or guide how people interact is political. The de-facto emergent norms of how people interact _without_ a code of conduct in place are political. The way people organize and structure power and influence without rules is political. The way people organize and structure power and influence with rules is political. Putting your hands over your eyes and ears and trying to be "non-political" just means you're accepting the de-facto politics that emerge. It probably also means they're working pretty well, for you. Of course, none of that means that heavy-handed, oppressive politicking used as a weapon to increase power is good. There are at least two opposites of doing something badly: not doing it at all, or doing it well. I'd argue that you can't _not_ do politics, so you should try to do it well.
- 8y ago

nalllar 8y ago

Being political isn't a problem. Free Software is political. mjg59 put this far better than I could: > A reminder that free software is fundamentally about breaking down barriers preventing people from participating in a social endeavour that grants them more control over their computers, and anyone who argues against that process is not helping the cause of free software > Some of those barriers are technical (DRM, proprietary software, undocumented hardware) and some are social (unwelcoming communities, abusive maintainers). You don't get to focus on one category and deny the other. > Alleged free software advocates who defend abusive individuals aren't helping the cause of free software by doing so. Push back. > "If anything deserves a reward, it is social contribution" - the GNU manifesto by Richard Stallman, 1985. https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/1042709376442687490 https://twitter.com/mjg59/status/1042709376442687490

nailer 8y ago
mjg's quote was concerning ethics and abuse, and does not mention politics. The concern is that the CoC itself may be used to abuse individuals. Asides from the Tso example, there was someone else harassed because, outside of a project, they expressed a sexual preference for male dominant/female submissive roles.
- pseudalopex 8y ago
  Can you explain what you mean about Ted Ts'o? I know there's a story going around that people are calling him a rape apologist because he didn't endorse the CoC. People have called him a rape apologist for years because of arguments he made about rape. If your other example is Larry Garfield, he's part of a subculture that's controversial even in BDSM circles, and he insisted on bringing elements of that subculture into technical events. Also, the official position seems to be that he didn't actually violate Drupal's code of conduct, but they removed him anyway.
AllegedAlec 8y ago
Where in the definition of FOSS does it say anything about breaking down barriers? Neither the definition of free software nor the definition of open software said anything about that. Unless that guy somehow would provide something that indicates that there's a consensus about his definition of FOSS being the correct one, it's just another person trying to push his own values as the values of an entire group.

pommed 8y ago

The CoC is a form of identity politics that is enforced upon already-inclusive communities, to make them thread on thin ice. Being against the CoC, means that, in today's climate of polarization, you are against inclusiveness. So I am going to be unreasonable about it: The only reason "body size" is mentioned, is because the author is fat. The only reason why "gender identity and expression" is mentioned, is because the author is trans. For most of these cases, a simple "don't discriminate on disability" would suffice. Then there is the extremely wide scope: A document that is supposed to make sure that pull requests and issues are dealt with without too much assholes, also polices appearances of its authors on social media and conferences. Meanwhile there is no place in the manifesto for neurodiversity: Autistic people with low emotional intelligence. These CoC's are pushed in through the back, by activists. Just like those that went out of their way to pressure maintainers of computer vision software to remove "lena.jpg" (A modeling woman now working with disabled people to do data entry) and change her with a picture of Grace Hopper (A soldier who happened to be woman, making sure that space remains US-only). Everybody is welcome to contribute to my all-inclusive software! Nazi's, Antifa's, racists, conservatives, democrats, soldiers, peace keepers, freedom fighters, they's, fat people, skinny people, fat-hating people. If you act professional: I would never know: It is not like I would go to the Twitter of the one that made a PR to check out their identity politics (or lack thereof). There is another group doing that though... If the CoC would be appended to the open source software licenses on my projects, than it would not be open source anymore, I would not be free to do with the software whatever I want.

nalllar 8y ago
> The only reason "body size" is mentioned, is because the author is fat. The only reason why "gender identity and expression" is mentioned, is because the author is trans. For most of these cases, a simple "don't discriminate on disability" would suffice. Is being fat or trans a disability? :/
- pommed 8y ago
  Yes. Morbid obesity (as a disease, not self-inflicted) qualifies as a disability for social security. Transsexuality falls under gender dysphoria (as a hormonal disease, not psychological). If you have reasonable recourse it is not a disability, and only you can help alleviate any (perceived) discrimination. The question then remains: Does Linus have reasonable recourse to change his harsh behavior, or is this who he is by nature? If it is who he is by nature, then this CoC is bullying him for something he can't change.