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It's interesting that Torvalds describes himself as "not a people person", when he's a gifted communicator who has been tremendously successful at managing the

It's interesting that Torvalds describes himself as "not a people person", when he's a gifted communicator who has been tremendously successful at managing the community around Linux over many years. His current refinements are making a great thing even better.

HenryBemis 8y ago
He's an uncut (but polished) diamond, a bit rough around the edges but trully brilliant.
asdkhadsj 8y ago
This is more of a question than a critique on your comment, but: Couldn't he still not be a people person _(perhaps a poor communicator)_, and still manage a successful community? I say that because historically it's been a bit of a meme around how forceful and abrasive Linus is. Yet, he's often right, or at the very least very informed. He's a very smart man who has done very smart things. I'm not sure if the Linux community inherently means he's a gifted communicator. Eg, I don't think I could behave like Linus and make a Linux-like community - I think his talent and intelligence carry his lack of communication skills. Which is not a discredit to him, we're all different. Thoughts?
- matthewmacleod 8y ago
  Yes. That seems entirely plausible and even likely. Have you ever worked with someone who is both skilled and a good communicator? It’s an excellent experience, because good people skills are like a force multiplier on those technical skills.
- Insanity 8y ago
  I also think Linux is successful because the tool and ideology appeals to people rather than Linus. In a huge part of development of distros you don't come into contact with Linus anyway, and they are part of the reason why Linux is popular. So I would not attribute the whole Linux effort and community to him. (He had a huge part in getting it off the ground though and I do not wish to minimize his influenve and input)
- rectang 8y ago
  Torvalds' written communications are incredibly well-composed, full of information and get his point across well. On the basis of his emails alone, he's a "gifted communicator" in my view. Not everyone who is as logically brilliant as him can write like that. Despite that, I'm sure that when he says he's "not a people person" there's something to it. Maybe a certain difficulty reading people or anticipating their responses? That those two things live together side-by-side, that's what I personally meant by "interesting".
  - blktiger 8y ago
    IMO, the thing that he doesn't seem to understand is the difference between criticizing the implementation and criticizing the person. Pointing out flaws in the code is not the same as calling a person stupid. If he could just learn to explain why the code is bad most of his people problems would disappear. Not all, since some people take criticism of their code poorly, but if you aren't committed to the highest quality code possible then you probably shouldn't be working on something like kernel development. There are some ways to reduce problems with those kinds of people though. Asking probing questions to get the person to think through the problems on their own to fix them for example. Or having a standards document that all kernel code is expected to conform to so you can just point out parts that don't conform to the standard.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      "Asking probing questions to get the person to think through the problems on their own to fix them for example." My impression that most of his blow ups happen after he has tried this approach unsuccessfully. I am just a little tech lead but over the years I have found that with some people you have to yell at them from time to time because they don't understand feedback that was given nicely.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    "not a people person" Some people are are task oriented and some people are relationship oriented. I think he cares more about the project than making people happy.
  - 8y ago
- azag0 8y ago
  If the email to BBC was written by Torvalds, then he is a great communicator. Very few people can write with such clarity.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  The fact that he has been leading this for so long shows that he is a great communicator. You can't do this without. Communication skills doesn't necessarily mean to be smooth and agreeable. It's one facet of it but not everything. On the other hand some people may think his style works because he is abrasive and emulate that (like some people didnand still do with Jobs). In the end as a leader you need to have a vision where things should go and be able to communicate that. You need to give people freedom to do what they need to do but also sometimes clearly say "no" and risk to alientate some people.
- Spooky23 8y ago
  There's different types of communication. From my casual view, he's not a great communicator in the sense of communicating with the public. That requires measured response and dealing with issues in a particular way. He is a master of his craft, and very effective technical communicator. As a non-kernel programmer, I can read something that he writes about and understand it enough to answer questions I have about how things work. It's one of the challenges of working in big groups of people. He is dealing with a huge community, all with their own interests and agendas in pursuit of his vision of excellence. In a private company he would be able to exert (directly or indirectly) control over the conduct of community members. In this public forum, he has the ability to influence rhetorically or control what gets past him. That's a different and more difficult form of control, especially when you have to do it in public.
maxxxxx 8y ago
It's truly remarkable that he has been able to keep that project together for so long. Instead of looking at his weaknesses people should look at how he did this. There is a lot to learn.
ryanmarsh 8y ago
I’ve been called a gifted public speaker. I’m also not a people person. In fact I dislike damn near everyone I meet. I don’t see why the two need to be correlated in some way.
Nasrudith 8y ago
He communicates well but on a task instead of things about people per say. Someone like him for instance isn't sure about how to respond say Sandra having a baby and would have to ask if it is good news or not but he knows how to process say increasing multithreading is important in the Kernel but there are competing security issues he knows how to coordinate there to patch Heartbleed and its ilk.
elorant 8y ago
A community of programmers isn't the same as a community of average Joes. Engineers care about facts not so much about sentiment. That is why you can be harsh and still get the message through. Trying doing that in the general public though won't work. If you notice politicians always talk to the public like they're imbeciles. Short, easy to remember messages without a lot of technicalities. Quite the opposite of the way we communicate.
- RoyTyrell 8y ago
  I don't know, I find a lot of engineers to actually be really sensitive. Confident and nice people can hold their ground and maintain civility in a disagreement without devolving into name-calling, questioning someone's character, or question someone's abilities because they don't agree on how to implement a process (be it in software, hardware, or something more mechanical). Adding a large ego onto being sensitive makes for a very unpleasant and volatile combination. It causes them to take disagreement personally and then it becomes a religious discussion along the lines of vim vs emacs (obviously vim is superior and if you think otherwise, go back to sociology you moron). I think Linus is just like that. That's my two bits.
- zaphar 8y ago
  This is a myth about engineers that I've almost never seen demonstrated in reality. I suspect we would be better served by just admitting that engineers are people to with all the flaws that come with it.
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  "Engineers care about facts not so much about sentiment." Some engineers do. But all are still people who have feelings, and the sentiment of the message can definitely affect and hurt them.
rpoconn1 8y ago
Hitler was also a good communicator.
- 08-15 8y ago
  True. But was Hitler a People-Person? What about Goebbels?
  - pjc50 8y ago
    Supposedly he was good at dinner parties. There are plenty of accounts of various British aristocrats describing him as "charming" before the war. But while trying to find the canonical Hitler dinner party story I came across an even more extraordinary one, involving the massacre of Jews as after-dinner entertainment: https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium.MAGAZINE-my-aunt-had-a-dinner-party-and-then-took-her-guests-to-kill-180-jews-1.5489527 https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium.MAGAZINE-... Being a "people person" and a mass murderer are not at all incompatible. It all depends what that person thinks of as "people".
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
the_spacebyte 8y ago
I think he means it as in "I'm not one to cater to people's feelings"
dagw 8y ago
I get where he's coming from. I have no problem speaking in front of people or participating and leading groups when it comes to technical/professional/job related things, but dealing with groups and people in a more ambiguous social contexts just makes me want to run and hide in a corner.

HenryBemis 8y ago

He's an uncut (but polished) diamond, a bit rough around the edges but trully brilliant.

asdkhadsj 8y ago

This is more of a question than a critique on your comment, but: Couldn't he still not be a people person _(perhaps a poor communicator)_, and still manage a successful community? I say that because historically it's been a bit of a meme around how forceful and abrasive Linus is. Yet, he's often right, or at the very least very informed. He's a very smart man who has done very smart things. I'm not sure if the Linux community inherently means he's a gifted communicator. Eg, I don't think I could behave like Linus and make a Linux-like community - I think his talent and intelligence carry his lack of communication skills. Which is not a discredit to him, we're all different. Thoughts?

matthewmacleod 8y ago
Yes. That seems entirely plausible and even likely. Have you ever worked with someone who is both skilled and a good communicator? It’s an excellent experience, because good people skills are like a force multiplier on those technical skills.
Insanity 8y ago
I also think Linux is successful because the tool and ideology appeals to people rather than Linus. In a huge part of development of distros you don't come into contact with Linus anyway, and they are part of the reason why Linux is popular. So I would not attribute the whole Linux effort and community to him. (He had a huge part in getting it off the ground though and I do not wish to minimize his influenve and input)
rectang 8y ago
Torvalds' written communications are incredibly well-composed, full of information and get his point across well. On the basis of his emails alone, he's a "gifted communicator" in my view. Not everyone who is as logically brilliant as him can write like that. Despite that, I'm sure that when he says he's "not a people person" there's something to it. Maybe a certain difficulty reading people or anticipating their responses? That those two things live together side-by-side, that's what I personally meant by "interesting".
- blktiger 8y ago
  IMO, the thing that he doesn't seem to understand is the difference between criticizing the implementation and criticizing the person. Pointing out flaws in the code is not the same as calling a person stupid. If he could just learn to explain why the code is bad most of his people problems would disappear. Not all, since some people take criticism of their code poorly, but if you aren't committed to the highest quality code possible then you probably shouldn't be working on something like kernel development. There are some ways to reduce problems with those kinds of people though. Asking probing questions to get the person to think through the problems on their own to fix them for example. Or having a standards document that all kernel code is expected to conform to so you can just point out parts that don't conform to the standard.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    "Asking probing questions to get the person to think through the problems on their own to fix them for example." My impression that most of his blow ups happen after he has tried this approach unsuccessfully. I am just a little tech lead but over the years I have found that with some people you have to yell at them from time to time because they don't understand feedback that was given nicely.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  "not a people person" Some people are are task oriented and some people are relationship oriented. I think he cares more about the project than making people happy.
- 8y ago
azag0 8y ago
If the email to BBC was written by Torvalds, then he is a great communicator. Very few people can write with such clarity.
maxxxxx 8y ago
The fact that he has been leading this for so long shows that he is a great communicator. You can't do this without. Communication skills doesn't necessarily mean to be smooth and agreeable. It's one facet of it but not everything. On the other hand some people may think his style works because he is abrasive and emulate that (like some people didnand still do with Jobs). In the end as a leader you need to have a vision where things should go and be able to communicate that. You need to give people freedom to do what they need to do but also sometimes clearly say "no" and risk to alientate some people.
Spooky23 8y ago
There's different types of communication. From my casual view, he's not a great communicator in the sense of communicating with the public. That requires measured response and dealing with issues in a particular way. He is a master of his craft, and very effective technical communicator. As a non-kernel programmer, I can read something that he writes about and understand it enough to answer questions I have about how things work. It's one of the challenges of working in big groups of people. He is dealing with a huge community, all with their own interests and agendas in pursuit of his vision of excellence. In a private company he would be able to exert (directly or indirectly) control over the conduct of community members. In this public forum, he has the ability to influence rhetorically or control what gets past him. That's a different and more difficult form of control, especially when you have to do it in public.

maxxxxx 8y ago

It's truly remarkable that he has been able to keep that project together for so long. Instead of looking at his weaknesses people should look at how he did this. There is a lot to learn.

ryanmarsh 8y ago

I’ve been called a gifted public speaker. I’m also not a people person. In fact I dislike damn near everyone I meet. I don’t see why the two need to be correlated in some way.

Nasrudith 8y ago

He communicates well but on a task instead of things about people per say. Someone like him for instance isn't sure about how to respond say Sandra having a baby and would have to ask if it is good news or not but he knows how to process say increasing multithreading is important in the Kernel but there are competing security issues he knows how to coordinate there to patch Heartbleed and its ilk.

elorant 8y ago

A community of programmers isn't the same as a community of average Joes. Engineers care about facts not so much about sentiment. That is why you can be harsh and still get the message through. Trying doing that in the general public though won't work. If you notice politicians always talk to the public like they're imbeciles. Short, easy to remember messages without a lot of technicalities. Quite the opposite of the way we communicate.

RoyTyrell 8y ago
I don't know, I find a lot of engineers to actually be really sensitive. Confident and nice people can hold their ground and maintain civility in a disagreement without devolving into name-calling, questioning someone's character, or question someone's abilities because they don't agree on how to implement a process (be it in software, hardware, or something more mechanical). Adding a large ego onto being sensitive makes for a very unpleasant and volatile combination. It causes them to take disagreement personally and then it becomes a religious discussion along the lines of vim vs emacs (obviously vim is superior and if you think otherwise, go back to sociology you moron). I think Linus is just like that. That's my two bits.
zaphar 8y ago
This is a myth about engineers that I've almost never seen demonstrated in reality. I suspect we would be better served by just admitting that engineers are people to with all the flaws that come with it.
s73v3r_ 8y ago
"Engineers care about facts not so much about sentiment." Some engineers do. But all are still people who have feelings, and the sentiment of the message can definitely affect and hurt them.

rpoconn1 8y ago

Hitler was also a good communicator.

08-15 8y ago
True. But was Hitler a People-Person? What about Goebbels?
- pjc50 8y ago
  Supposedly he was good at dinner parties. There are plenty of accounts of various British aristocrats describing him as "charming" before the war. But while trying to find the canonical Hitler dinner party story I came across an even more extraordinary one, involving the massacre of Jews as after-dinner entertainment: https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium.MAGAZINE-my-aunt-had-a-dinner-party-and-then-took-her-guests-to-kill-180-jews-1.5489527 https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium.MAGAZINE-... Being a "people person" and a mass murderer are not at all incompatible. It all depends what that person thinks of as "people".

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

the_spacebyte 8y ago

I think he means it as in "I'm not one to cater to people's feelings"

dagw 8y ago

I get where he's coming from. I have no problem speaking in front of people or participating and leading groups when it comes to technical/professional/job related things, but dealing with groups and people in a more ambiguous social contexts just makes me want to run and hide in a corner.