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> This "broad pattern of unaccountable decision making", also called permissionless innovation I'll take your permissionless innovation and raise you 8 million

by titzer 8y ago

> This "broad pattern of unaccountable decision making", also called permissionless innovation I'll take your permissionless innovation and raise you 8 million tons of plastic garbage going into the oceans every year[1], a depleted Ozone layer, black lung, asbestos, and unbreathable air. (Not to mention global warming--egad!) The problem is that industry "permissionlessly innovates" and because profitable innovations flourish in the marketplace, the system blindly scales bad ideas to global proportions, and only after we've accumulated massive debt do we try restrict their actions with feeble legislation which is roundly shouted down by deniers funded by the profits of those industries and poo-pooed by corrupt legislators beholden to their financiers. You see why there might be some systemic problems with this default setting? We need to jettison this idea that companies get to do whatever they want "because it's for the economy!" and only later do we reign them in when they've inevitably wrecked something that we only recognize is important in hindsight. [1] Who knows, maybe some might come back with "oh it's those dirty trash monkeys in India and Indonesia who can't be good and put their garbage in a hole like we do". To that: yeah, the problem is we didn't innovate and scale the economy hard enough to save the planet. Right. Meanwhile, who thought it up? Who sold them all those damn coke bottles and chip bags?

tim333 8y ago
Re [1] you have to give pg_bot that the argument was "why America has a culture of innovation" and your counters are all basically non American. As to "8 million tons of plastic garbage going into the oceans every year[1], a depleted Ozone layer, black lung, asbestos, and unbreathable air. " America does rather well at getting rid of those, China is the biggest offender. It works in America because they do pass laws to reduce that stuff, China could try harder.
- zhengwang 8y ago
  First of all this is pretty blatant whataboutism and second of all we currently have a government that is actively rolling back the very protections you are talking about so you don't have a strong point.
- kapad 8y ago
  woah woah.. America just left the Paris accords. China is still committed to them. > As to "8 million tons of plastic garbage going into the oceans every year[1], a depleted Ozone layer, black lung, asbestos, and unbreathable air. " America does rather well at getting rid of those, China is the biggest offender. America is terrible at getting rid of those. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhouse_gas_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhous... USA is number 2 on that list. And worse, it's government is living in denial, with a president that's refuting climate change as a problem (and as mentioned earlier, has withdrawn the US as a signatory to the Paris agreement). And this tells just part of the story. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di... That's the list of countries by CO2 emissions on a per capita basis. Among the large economies of the world, the US is the first on that list and also way, way, way, ahead of China. Again, this is just part of the story. We can't ignore historical figures for greenhouse gas emissions. China has only recently (since after the 1960s) become industrialized. It became a significant contributor to CO2 emissions only after about 1980, and even then it was way behind other countries. (way behind the US too). It's only recently, since about 2010, that China has overtaken USA as the largest emitter of CO2 and other green house gases. Even then, on a per capita basis, it's way behind the USA. And you say "America does rather well at getting rid of those, China is the biggest offender." That statement is so factually incorrect it verges on being ludicrous. Get your facts straight, and then when it comes time for another election, vote for the senator, congressman or president that considers climate change a serious issue and has an agenda of fixing the US contributions to CO2 and other green house gas emissions.
  - tim333 8y ago
    The [1] list doesn't include CO2. It's a different kind of problem.

by titzer 8y ago

tim333 8y ago

Re [1] you have to give pg_bot that the argument was "why America has a culture of innovation" and your counters are all basically non American. As to "8 million tons of plastic garbage going into the oceans every year[1], a depleted Ozone layer, black lung, asbestos, and unbreathable air. " America does rather well at getting rid of those, China is the biggest offender. It works in America because they do pass laws to reduce that stuff, China could try harder.

zhengwang 8y ago
First of all this is pretty blatant whataboutism and second of all we currently have a government that is actively rolling back the very protections you are talking about so you don't have a strong point.
kapad 8y ago
woah woah.. America just left the Paris accords. China is still committed to them. > As to "8 million tons of plastic garbage going into the oceans every year[1], a depleted Ozone layer, black lung, asbestos, and unbreathable air. " America does rather well at getting rid of those, China is the biggest offender. America is terrible at getting rid of those. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhouse_gas_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhous... USA is number 2 on that list. And worse, it's government is living in denial, with a president that's refuting climate change as a problem (and as mentioned earlier, has withdrawn the US as a signatory to the Paris agreement). And this tells just part of the story. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di... That's the list of countries by CO2 emissions on a per capita basis. Among the large economies of the world, the US is the first on that list and also way, way, way, ahead of China. Again, this is just part of the story. We can't ignore historical figures for greenhouse gas emissions. China has only recently (since after the 1960s) become industrialized. It became a significant contributor to CO2 emissions only after about 1980, and even then it was way behind other countries. (way behind the US too). It's only recently, since about 2010, that China has overtaken USA as the largest emitter of CO2 and other green house gases. Even then, on a per capita basis, it's way behind the USA. And you say "America does rather well at getting rid of those, China is the biggest offender." That statement is so factually incorrect it verges on being ludicrous. Get your facts straight, and then when it comes time for another election, vote for the senator, congressman or president that considers climate change a serious issue and has an agenda of fixing the US contributions to CO2 and other green house gas emissions.
- tim333 8y ago
  The [1] list doesn't include CO2. It's a different kind of problem.