8 ms·

I read The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature a while ago and your numbers are pretty close to what Pinker says. About 50% of personality from gene

I read The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature a while ago and your numbers are pretty close to what Pinker says. About 50% of personality from genetics, 50% from environment, and approximately 0% from parental influence.

dan-robertson 8y ago
Surely parental influence falls under environment?
- bloak 8y ago
  Yes, of course it does. Parents choose which school the children go to, for example.
  - thorin 8y ago
    Not just that: where you live, what kind of house, is there green space nearby, what toys are there, how many people are around in the house whether you spend a lot of time with friends/grandparents, whether there is a lot of interaction with the parent or they are just left by themselves or with the TV on.
- rademacher 8y ago
  I'd argue parental influence falls under genetics and environment, assuming your genes come from your parents. I wonder if people who are more adept at creating and selective recall of memories tend to be happier individuals.
- annamargot 8y ago
  Yes. Parental influence would be tough to deny. Normally developing children use modeling (imitation) to instruct their behavior. This is why kids like to pretend to play kitchen or use a broom. They see you do it. Anecdotally, I have seen children who have ‘bad attitudes’ do a 180 when the parents make an effort to model calmness and positivity. Anxious, stressed out or negative emotions in parents affect the kids. In most settings, mood is contagious and is set by the leader. The catch is you have to keep it up.
tomp 8y ago
> 50% of personality from genetics What's the source of this? Given that siblings are often so different between each other, and from their parents, it could be that most of personality traits come from the environment, but we're still born with it (i.e. it could be influence in early development of the fetus, from the environment (womb, food mother eats and her hormones, sounds and movement from outside, ...) not from genes).
- afpx 8y ago
  “... Pinker relies on a 1998 book called "The Nurture Assumption," by Judith Rich Harris, which has been the object of some controversy in the field of developmental psychology. Harris claimed that "shared family environments"—that is, parents—have little or no effect on a child's personality.” https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2002/11/25/what-comes-naturally-2 https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2002/11/25/what-comes-nat... As a parent, that seems about right. We may lay a foundation for helping them make good choices. But, a child’s identity ultimately seems to be formed by their predisposition and the types of peers that they seek out and befriend at around 12 years and onwards.
  - DanBC 8y ago
    We're not going to get any useful information from a pop sci book that uses other pop sci books as sources. There's almost no fact checking and they usually mangle the science. http://www.danielbor.com/lehrerandsciencewriting/ http://www.danielbor.com/lehrerandsciencewriting/ http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2016/08/why_doesn_t_anyone_fact_check_science_books.html?via=gdpr-consent http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201...
    - afpx 8y ago
      Sorry, I would have cited specific chapters and paragraphs if I had more time. I don’t even know where my copy of the book is, at the moment (somewhere around here). I figured a ‘pop sci’ reference could at least help guide the way. My bad.
watwut 8y ago
When parents change approach, kids behavior changes over time. I have seen that happen enough times already to their effect be 0%. Both in terms of how the kid reacts to situations around and what the kid likes, dislikes or value (consider good vs bad behavior).
- rusk 8y ago
  yeah I think the 0% is questionable, but I am not familiar with the research or how this is parameterised.
  - watwut 8y ago
    I guess one major parameter will be how much the parent is present in kids life and whether they have good relationship. If the parent is not present, his or her impact will be smaller.
    - rusk 8y ago
      I agree with you, but GP was citing studies where the control variable you describe was adjusted and no effect measured.
      - watwut 8y ago
        Unfortunately, I have no idea which studies GP has in mind and what exactly they measured (whether things related to what I observed or something entirely else), age of kids in question, whether parents had significantly different approaches etc. I don't think there is scientific a consensus on this yet. I strongly doubt that there is reasonable study that would make the split 50%, 50%, 0%. It is too round, too nice to be true.
        rusk 8y ago
        Like I say, I agree with you in the broader sense but I was making a finer point here. i.e. not whether the premise is true, but just what the scope (or even how valid) was of the research that demonstrated the premise. GP provides sources in a sibling thread where the discussion is further elaborated.
tudorconstantin 8y ago
So, if I beat my wife in front of my kids regularly, I can have a clear conscience if they'll beat theirs or accept abuses from their husbands in the future?
Arkight 8y ago
Quite an statement here, 0% from parenting, surely parent beating their child up does influence their upbringing. One of the telling trait of serial killers are harsh parenting/tough childhood in general btw.
- annamargot 8y ago
  Absolutely. Childhood trauma shapes adult behavior, can induce psychosis, and greatly affect health. [0] But even before we even get to overt trauma, simple resentment is pretty powerful in my opinion as well. Resentment can build in lots of ways. Parents perceived to not treat children equally or to restrict child from persuing a particular interest including love interests. If parents don’t respect a child it has consequences. Edit: to add that resentment is normally a reciprocation. Meaning, parent resents child and therefore behaves in a manner that causes child to resent parent. Snowball that for a few years / decades = not good. [0]- https://www.ted.com/talks/nadine_burke_harris_how_childhood_trauma_affects_health_across_a_lifetime https://www.ted.com/talks/nadine_burke_harris_how_childhood_...
  - rusk 8y ago
    I wonder did this research just look at the "normal range", with these kinds of instances treated as "outliers". I'd expect the results to be strongly qualified as such but these kinds of details often get lost in translation.
  - scirocco 8y ago
    Read about this in a book recently, not sure which.. Parents who abandon/do not care about their child, will raise a child which believes no one values them. This causes them to believe they are not worth much, thus they will be afraid of going out and getting their voice heard as an adult - because deep inside, they believe their voice to be worthless. This person will avoid risk, avoid being heard as it may be "punished", according to previous experience..
- emodendroket 8y ago
  I don't know if Pinker is right or wrong but I have to imagine that parenting is part of what he's calling "environment."

dan-robertson 8y ago

Surely parental influence falls under environment?

bloak 8y ago
Yes, of course it does. Parents choose which school the children go to, for example.
- thorin 8y ago
  Not just that: where you live, what kind of house, is there green space nearby, what toys are there, how many people are around in the house whether you spend a lot of time with friends/grandparents, whether there is a lot of interaction with the parent or they are just left by themselves or with the TV on.
rademacher 8y ago
I'd argue parental influence falls under genetics and environment, assuming your genes come from your parents. I wonder if people who are more adept at creating and selective recall of memories tend to be happier individuals.
annamargot 8y ago
Yes. Parental influence would be tough to deny. Normally developing children use modeling (imitation) to instruct their behavior. This is why kids like to pretend to play kitchen or use a broom. They see you do it. Anecdotally, I have seen children who have ‘bad attitudes’ do a 180 when the parents make an effort to model calmness and positivity. Anxious, stressed out or negative emotions in parents affect the kids. In most settings, mood is contagious and is set by the leader. The catch is you have to keep it up.

tomp 8y ago

> 50% of personality from genetics What's the source of this? Given that siblings are often so different between each other, and from their parents, it could be that most of personality traits come from the environment, but we're still born with it (i.e. it could be influence in early development of the fetus, from the environment (womb, food mother eats and her hormones, sounds and movement from outside, ...) not from genes).

afpx 8y ago
“... Pinker relies on a 1998 book called "The Nurture Assumption," by Judith Rich Harris, which has been the object of some controversy in the field of developmental psychology. Harris claimed that "shared family environments"—that is, parents—have little or no effect on a child's personality.” https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2002/11/25/what-comes-naturally-2 https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2002/11/25/what-comes-nat... As a parent, that seems about right. We may lay a foundation for helping them make good choices. But, a child’s identity ultimately seems to be formed by their predisposition and the types of peers that they seek out and befriend at around 12 years and onwards.
- DanBC 8y ago
  We're not going to get any useful information from a pop sci book that uses other pop sci books as sources. There's almost no fact checking and they usually mangle the science. http://www.danielbor.com/lehrerandsciencewriting/ http://www.danielbor.com/lehrerandsciencewriting/ http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2016/08/why_doesn_t_anyone_fact_check_science_books.html?via=gdpr-consent http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201...
  - afpx 8y ago
    Sorry, I would have cited specific chapters and paragraphs if I had more time. I don’t even know where my copy of the book is, at the moment (somewhere around here). I figured a ‘pop sci’ reference could at least help guide the way. My bad.

watwut 8y ago

When parents change approach, kids behavior changes over time. I have seen that happen enough times already to their effect be 0%. Both in terms of how the kid reacts to situations around and what the kid likes, dislikes or value (consider good vs bad behavior).

rusk 8y ago
yeah I think the 0% is questionable, but I am not familiar with the research or how this is parameterised.
- watwut 8y ago
  I guess one major parameter will be how much the parent is present in kids life and whether they have good relationship. If the parent is not present, his or her impact will be smaller.
  - rusk 8y ago
    I agree with you, but GP was citing studies where the control variable you describe was adjusted and no effect measured.
    - watwut 8y ago
      Unfortunately, I have no idea which studies GP has in mind and what exactly they measured (whether things related to what I observed or something entirely else), age of kids in question, whether parents had significantly different approaches etc. I don't think there is scientific a consensus on this yet. I strongly doubt that there is reasonable study that would make the split 50%, 50%, 0%. It is too round, too nice to be true.
      - rusk 8y ago
        Like I say, I agree with you in the broader sense but I was making a finer point here. i.e. not whether the premise is true, but just what the scope (or even how valid) was of the research that demonstrated the premise. GP provides sources in a sibling thread where the discussion is further elaborated.

tudorconstantin 8y ago

So, if I beat my wife in front of my kids regularly, I can have a clear conscience if they'll beat theirs or accept abuses from their husbands in the future?

Arkight 8y ago

Quite an statement here, 0% from parenting, surely parent beating their child up does influence their upbringing. One of the telling trait of serial killers are harsh parenting/tough childhood in general btw.

annamargot 8y ago
Absolutely. Childhood trauma shapes adult behavior, can induce psychosis, and greatly affect health. [0] But even before we even get to overt trauma, simple resentment is pretty powerful in my opinion as well. Resentment can build in lots of ways. Parents perceived to not treat children equally or to restrict child from persuing a particular interest including love interests. If parents don’t respect a child it has consequences. Edit: to add that resentment is normally a reciprocation. Meaning, parent resents child and therefore behaves in a manner that causes child to resent parent. Snowball that for a few years / decades = not good. [0]- https://www.ted.com/talks/nadine_burke_harris_how_childhood_trauma_affects_health_across_a_lifetime https://www.ted.com/talks/nadine_burke_harris_how_childhood_...
- rusk 8y ago
  I wonder did this research just look at the "normal range", with these kinds of instances treated as "outliers". I'd expect the results to be strongly qualified as such but these kinds of details often get lost in translation.
- scirocco 8y ago
  Read about this in a book recently, not sure which.. Parents who abandon/do not care about their child, will raise a child which believes no one values them. This causes them to believe they are not worth much, thus they will be afraid of going out and getting their voice heard as an adult - because deep inside, they believe their voice to be worthless. This person will avoid risk, avoid being heard as it may be "punished", according to previous experience..
emodendroket 8y ago
I don't know if Pinker is right or wrong but I have to imagine that parenting is part of what he's calling "environment."