3 ms·

This could be really useful for game development! Certain kinds of networked games are built as a model, deterministically updated by clock ticks and commands

This could be really useful for game development! Certain kinds of networked games are built as a model, deterministically updated by clock ticks and commands from the server, and a view layer on top of that. And even model-level objects often monitor each other for changes. Seems like a perfect fit. Game objects often have graph-like (not tree-like) dependencies though. E.g. two characters may want to move towards each other, creating a pointer cycle. Ideally I'd want one to be "magically" updated if the other disappears or changes state. I wonder if Skip has a good answer there, or if a good language-level answer is even theoretically possible.

vjeux 8y ago
Game development was a major driver for the design of Skip but for another reason: the GC. The big problem with languages with GC is that it is impredictable: when the amount of allocated memory globally passes a certain threshold, then a GC pass happens and it’s unclear how much time it’ll take and you may miss your frame. The idea of Skip is that GC always or never triggers for some functions. So if while you're developing your game/app the time it takes to GC is within the bounds you wanted, then it’ll keep behaving this way in production. If it is too expensive for your use case, then you can optimize that specific function (and what it calls) using a profiler. You don’t have to think about the context of the entire app to figure out how to reduce GC pauses.
jverlaguet 8y ago
It's definitely possible. You need to "break the cycle" by adding an additional layer. You can encode any graph as an array of objects were you replaced the pointers with indexes within the array. Of course, the granularity (how big the arrays are) is up to you, and there is a tradeoff here. The other very important thing to note is that Skip has a memory model suitable for that use case. Every function has a GC overhead, but that overhead is non-contextual. Meaning, the GC will collect the memory for only one function (instead of the entire heap). This is possible thanks to the guarantees of the type-system.
- mpartel 8y ago
  So, say I have: `characters = [A, B, ...]` and I want to maintain for each character `x` the invariant: `x.target = (first y in 'characters' where y.score > x.score)` Can Skip maintain such a self-referential invariant automatically? Does the answer depend on A and B's mutability? (This "graph as array" escape hatch seems to come up in many language designs with compile-time pointer analysis. It's useful, maybe even essential, but you tend to lose some nice language features/guarantees with it, in my limited experience.) The GC thing sounds excellent!
  - vjeux 8y ago
    Not responding to your question directly but I just want to mention that if you mark your class as mutable and use mutable instances, you can write code as you’d expect from other languages. The only downside is that you can’t pass those values to a memoized function unless you do a deep copy.

vjeux 8y ago

Game development was a major driver for the design of Skip but for another reason: the GC. The big problem with languages with GC is that it is impredictable: when the amount of allocated memory globally passes a certain threshold, then a GC pass happens and it’s unclear how much time it’ll take and you may miss your frame. The idea of Skip is that GC always or never triggers for some functions. So if while you're developing your game/app the time it takes to GC is within the bounds you wanted, then it’ll keep behaving this way in production. If it is too expensive for your use case, then you can optimize that specific function (and what it calls) using a profiler. You don’t have to think about the context of the entire app to figure out how to reduce GC pauses.

jverlaguet 8y ago

It's definitely possible. You need to "break the cycle" by adding an additional layer. You can encode any graph as an array of objects were you replaced the pointers with indexes within the array. Of course, the granularity (how big the arrays are) is up to you, and there is a tradeoff here. The other very important thing to note is that Skip has a memory model suitable for that use case. Every function has a GC overhead, but that overhead is non-contextual. Meaning, the GC will collect the memory for only one function (instead of the entire heap). This is possible thanks to the guarantees of the type-system.

mpartel 8y ago
So, say I have: `characters = [A, B, ...]` and I want to maintain for each character `x` the invariant: `x.target = (first y in 'characters' where y.score > x.score)` Can Skip maintain such a self-referential invariant automatically? Does the answer depend on A and B's mutability? (This "graph as array" escape hatch seems to come up in many language designs with compile-time pointer analysis. It's useful, maybe even essential, but you tend to lose some nice language features/guarantees with it, in my limited experience.) The GC thing sounds excellent!
- vjeux 8y ago
  Not responding to your question directly but I just want to mention that if you mark your class as mutable and use mutable instances, you can write code as you’d expect from other languages. The only downside is that you can’t pass those values to a memoized function unless you do a deep copy.