2 ms·

i work in one of the big 3 car companies. i deal with union employees on a regular basis. there's a reason why the american big 3's are not being able to compet

i work in one of the big 3 car companies. i deal with union employees on a regular basis. there's a reason why the american big 3's are not being able to compete the japanese and koreans. it takes more than an hour to undo a screw here, because the union employee is having a coffee/cigarette/....break, and i am not allowed to undo that screw because of the 'law'. i am for unions, but lack of accountability makes them do whatever they want and not do anything in time. i think i will write a blog post soon. edit - also these are the same guys who call themselves patriots and proudly support trump.

KirinDave 8y ago
So the JAW doesn't exist? Toyota encodes many union mechanisms directly into the corporate structure. The government itself makes it very hard to fire factory workers and backs pensions. So if you're looking for a justification for this, it seems like Unions are more of a scapegoat than a root cause. It seems as unfair to blame their union affiliation as it does to suggest that it's because they're Trump voters. Also worth noting that Tesla, an anti-union shop by all accounts, actually straight up missed their Model 3 targets while union shops (notably Chevrolet, but also Nissan) managed to get mass-market-priced full EVs on the road with good marks for quality, safety and performance within their price category. So maybe it's just America itself that has the issues?
- garyfirestorm 8y ago
  I'm not blaming the existence of union for these issues. The lack of accountability is my complaint. If you tell any employee that no matter what they do, their job is protected, you'll find them laughing at you when you assign them a task. If you look at Ford, they had to kill majority of their sedans because of the development costs and profitability. I live in this environment and I see daily tasks that take minutes take hours to get done. Bigger projects which takes weeks or months get dragged all the time. People still get paid and there are no consequences if objectives are not met. Considering these points, the management is forced to drop projects, kill certain cars or keep using old stuff (not fuel efficient). I do sincerely accept that the union is not the only bottle neck and sometimes we see wastage from upper management, but the magnitude of impact the union attitude has on work environment and productivity is considerably high. Tesla is altogether a different story. They just don't have the expertise to make things happen. The processes that the big 3 car companies have in place, developed over time, are not exact science. Putting a car together is a complex task. I definitely am a big fan of Tesla and love the way they do things, they have grossly underestimated the complexity of building a car.
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    > The lack of accountability is my complaint. If you tell any employee that no matter what they do, their job is protected, you'll find them laughing at you when you assign them a task. Well, you attribute this directly to Unions... so maybe there is a different kind of union that exists in a country with more social services that doesn't cause this. And that might explain the JAL. But like I said, Unions often have formal processes for people who aren't doing their work. Now, for folks who simply aren't doing a good job, you have to have an opinion about what must be done. > I live in this environment and I see daily tasks that take minutes take hours to get done. Bigger projects which takes weeks or months get dragged all the time I mean, I've worked at big non-union companies and I feel like I saw exactly that phenomenon as well. Perhaps that's more a feature of ineffective organizations? > People still get paid and there are no consequences if objectives are not met. ... the magnitude of impact the union attitude has on work environment and productivity is considerably high. Personally (perhaps I'm naive here?) I think if an organization that can't align and inform performance incentives with its workforce, be they union or not, is the result of a workplace and senior management problem. I know bad apple employees do exist, and they can be painful to work with and around. But I just have a hard time believing that it's a significant enough fraction to actually tank the company with no recourse. > I definitely am a big fan of Tesla and love the way they do things, they have grossly underestimated the complexity of building a car. I agree, but I think it's more that they don't get how to make good processes and align these over a large workforce, and a failure properly incentivize the workforce. When they were at a more artistic scale and the roadster's first-run bugs were worked out, they made fantastic cars for the most part.
timoth3y 8y ago
Both Japan and German automakers have very strong unions and between the two of them, they make some of the best cars in the world. Any time management starts blaming their workforce for the poor perforance of their firms, we should take it with a huge grain of salt. When a company goes under it is almost always the result of poor management decisions, but Americans are so quick to blame the workers. I really don't understand it.

KirinDave 8y ago

So the JAW doesn't exist? Toyota encodes many union mechanisms directly into the corporate structure. The government itself makes it very hard to fire factory workers and backs pensions. So if you're looking for a justification for this, it seems like Unions are more of a scapegoat than a root cause. It seems as unfair to blame their union affiliation as it does to suggest that it's because they're Trump voters. Also worth noting that Tesla, an anti-union shop by all accounts, actually straight up missed their Model 3 targets while union shops (notably Chevrolet, but also Nissan) managed to get mass-market-priced full EVs on the road with good marks for quality, safety and performance within their price category. So maybe it's just America itself that has the issues?

garyfirestorm 8y ago
I'm not blaming the existence of union for these issues. The lack of accountability is my complaint. If you tell any employee that no matter what they do, their job is protected, you'll find them laughing at you when you assign them a task. If you look at Ford, they had to kill majority of their sedans because of the development costs and profitability. I live in this environment and I see daily tasks that take minutes take hours to get done. Bigger projects which takes weeks or months get dragged all the time. People still get paid and there are no consequences if objectives are not met. Considering these points, the management is forced to drop projects, kill certain cars or keep using old stuff (not fuel efficient). I do sincerely accept that the union is not the only bottle neck and sometimes we see wastage from upper management, but the magnitude of impact the union attitude has on work environment and productivity is considerably high. Tesla is altogether a different story. They just don't have the expertise to make things happen. The processes that the big 3 car companies have in place, developed over time, are not exact science. Putting a car together is a complex task. I definitely am a big fan of Tesla and love the way they do things, they have grossly underestimated the complexity of building a car.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  > The lack of accountability is my complaint. If you tell any employee that no matter what they do, their job is protected, you'll find them laughing at you when you assign them a task. Well, you attribute this directly to Unions... so maybe there is a different kind of union that exists in a country with more social services that doesn't cause this. And that might explain the JAL. But like I said, Unions often have formal processes for people who aren't doing their work. Now, for folks who simply aren't doing a good job, you have to have an opinion about what must be done. > I live in this environment and I see daily tasks that take minutes take hours to get done. Bigger projects which takes weeks or months get dragged all the time I mean, I've worked at big non-union companies and I feel like I saw exactly that phenomenon as well. Perhaps that's more a feature of ineffective organizations? > People still get paid and there are no consequences if objectives are not met. ... the magnitude of impact the union attitude has on work environment and productivity is considerably high. Personally (perhaps I'm naive here?) I think if an organization that can't align and inform performance incentives with its workforce, be they union or not, is the result of a workplace and senior management problem. I know bad apple employees do exist, and they can be painful to work with and around. But I just have a hard time believing that it's a significant enough fraction to actually tank the company with no recourse. > I definitely am a big fan of Tesla and love the way they do things, they have grossly underestimated the complexity of building a car. I agree, but I think it's more that they don't get how to make good processes and align these over a large workforce, and a failure properly incentivize the workforce. When they were at a more artistic scale and the roadster's first-run bugs were worked out, they made fantastic cars for the most part.

timoth3y 8y ago

Both Japan and German automakers have very strong unions and between the two of them, they make some of the best cars in the world. Any time management starts blaming their workforce for the poor perforance of their firms, we should take it with a huge grain of salt. When a company goes under it is almost always the result of poor management decisions, but Americans are so quick to blame the workers. I really don't understand it.