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Being forced to keep around dead weight because they can't be fired, the potential for an entire company to be shutdown due to a union strike, being forced to o

by dx87 8y ago

Being forced to keep around dead weight because they can't be fired, the potential for an entire company to be shutdown due to a union strike, being forced to only hire individuals who are part of a union, regardless of whether they're the most qualified. For workers, they may be fine with the pay and benefits provided by the company, but get forced to pay union dues and deal with strikes and walkouts because union leadership says so. I'm generally in favor of unions, but there are enough downsides and examples of corrupt unions that they can't be considered objectively good. Also, not all companies treat non-union employees the same as walmart and amazon. My father works for a large multi-national company that is mixed union and non-union, and the non-union employees get paid more than the union employees, and get equivalent raises whenever the union employees get one. Money and benefits for employees aren't really a huge issue for the company, but the threat of a union organized shutdown is, so they pay basically reward the non-union employees for not having an implicit threat of shutting down if they don't get their way.

mreome 8y ago
There is also the association of Unions with Organized Crime in the US. In the early 20th century unions got into bed with, or were infiltrated by, organized criminal organizations and were used to extort other businesses and the government. The legacy of this is an image of corruption and “Union Thugs.” This image is used by management to make these potential issues seem like they are intended to line someone else’s pocket, thus making the idea of Union Dues and Strikes very unappealing. To be clear, I’m generally pro-union as well, as long as the union rules/dues/etc are reasonable, just discussing where US anti-union attitudes might be coming from.
- mywittyname 8y ago
  A lot of this is the direct result of union busting. Companies hired essentially private militias to come in and bully/repress workers who were attempting to organize. As a result, those workers turned to another group of essentially private militias to help stand up for them. Not that the criminals did this out of the kindness of their hearts. It turns out that being in charge of the Teamsters Union comes in handy when you're in the business of importing illicit goods.
  - KirinDave 8y ago
    It's extremely easy for Americans to gloss over the fact that until significant work reforms culminating in the Sherman anti-trust act, it was not unheard of (or, crazily enough, illegal) for super-companies like Standard Oil to enlist the US army in literal massacres with body counts over 100 when unions lead strikes. Being a union leader in the so-called "Gilded Age" of Rockafeller put you in alliance with other anti-government actors of varying quality as a matter of survival. As the government subsequently became more receptive to guaranteeing some degree of workers rights and benefits and limiting the power of super-billionaires, the necessity of allying with these elements fell apart in messy way.
    - colejohnson66 8y ago
      The Ludlow Massacre? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre
garyfirestorm 8y ago
i work in one of the big 3 car companies. i deal with union employees on a regular basis. there's a reason why the american big 3's are not being able to compete the japanese and koreans. it takes more than an hour to undo a screw here, because the union employee is having a coffee/cigarette/....break, and i am not allowed to undo that screw because of the 'law'. i am for unions, but lack of accountability makes them do whatever they want and not do anything in time. i think i will write a blog post soon. edit - also these are the same guys who call themselves patriots and proudly support trump.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  So the JAW doesn't exist? Toyota encodes many union mechanisms directly into the corporate structure. The government itself makes it very hard to fire factory workers and backs pensions. So if you're looking for a justification for this, it seems like Unions are more of a scapegoat than a root cause. It seems as unfair to blame their union affiliation as it does to suggest that it's because they're Trump voters. Also worth noting that Tesla, an anti-union shop by all accounts, actually straight up missed their Model 3 targets while union shops (notably Chevrolet, but also Nissan) managed to get mass-market-priced full EVs on the road with good marks for quality, safety and performance within their price category. So maybe it's just America itself that has the issues?
  - garyfirestorm 8y ago
    I'm not blaming the existence of union for these issues. The lack of accountability is my complaint. If you tell any employee that no matter what they do, their job is protected, you'll find them laughing at you when you assign them a task. If you look at Ford, they had to kill majority of their sedans because of the development costs and profitability. I live in this environment and I see daily tasks that take minutes take hours to get done. Bigger projects which takes weeks or months get dragged all the time. People still get paid and there are no consequences if objectives are not met. Considering these points, the management is forced to drop projects, kill certain cars or keep using old stuff (not fuel efficient). I do sincerely accept that the union is not the only bottle neck and sometimes we see wastage from upper management, but the magnitude of impact the union attitude has on work environment and productivity is considerably high. Tesla is altogether a different story. They just don't have the expertise to make things happen. The processes that the big 3 car companies have in place, developed over time, are not exact science. Putting a car together is a complex task. I definitely am a big fan of Tesla and love the way they do things, they have grossly underestimated the complexity of building a car.
KirinDave 8y ago
> Being forced to keep around dead weight because they can't be fired, the potential for an entire company to be shutdown due to a union strike, being forced to only hire individuals who are part of a union, regardless of whether they're the most qualified. For workers, they may be fine with the pay and benefits provided by the company, but get forced to pay union dues and deal with strikes and walkouts because union leadership says so. Right, but these are arguments that may or may not be based in reality. They're also based around a worldview that inherently says, "If you are not very good at your job compared to the most productive and dedicated people, you deserve to be fired." This is in fact a very modern view focused around the idea that efficiency-maximization is a pillar to societal happiness at large. In M. Friedman's case he very literally argued that. In reality, a better way for unions often aggressively deal with people who refuse to perform at all (because many jobs are union-only and if the union kicks you out, you're in trouble). Even teachers unions, the target of every union grudge in the US, do this. The disagreement is what to do with people who simply aren't very good at their jobs relative to peak producers. As we list the various American oppositions to unions, I think it's important to point out how these ideas are shaped and how they conflict with the Union's policies and the existing neoliberal economic establishment.

by dx87 8y ago

mreome 8y ago

There is also the association of Unions with Organized Crime in the US. In the early 20th century unions got into bed with, or were infiltrated by, organized criminal organizations and were used to extort other businesses and the government. The legacy of this is an image of corruption and “Union Thugs.” This image is used by management to make these potential issues seem like they are intended to line someone else’s pocket, thus making the idea of Union Dues and Strikes very unappealing. To be clear, I’m generally pro-union as well, as long as the union rules/dues/etc are reasonable, just discussing where US anti-union attitudes might be coming from.

mywittyname 8y ago
A lot of this is the direct result of union busting. Companies hired essentially private militias to come in and bully/repress workers who were attempting to organize. As a result, those workers turned to another group of essentially private militias to help stand up for them. Not that the criminals did this out of the kindness of their hearts. It turns out that being in charge of the Teamsters Union comes in handy when you're in the business of importing illicit goods.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  It's extremely easy for Americans to gloss over the fact that until significant work reforms culminating in the Sherman anti-trust act, it was not unheard of (or, crazily enough, illegal) for super-companies like Standard Oil to enlist the US army in literal massacres with body counts over 100 when unions lead strikes. Being a union leader in the so-called "Gilded Age" of Rockafeller put you in alliance with other anti-government actors of varying quality as a matter of survival. As the government subsequently became more receptive to guaranteeing some degree of workers rights and benefits and limiting the power of super-billionaires, the necessity of allying with these elements fell apart in messy way.
  - colejohnson66 8y ago
    The Ludlow Massacre? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre

garyfirestorm 8y ago

i work in one of the big 3 car companies. i deal with union employees on a regular basis. there's a reason why the american big 3's are not being able to compete the japanese and koreans. it takes more than an hour to undo a screw here, because the union employee is having a coffee/cigarette/....break, and i am not allowed to undo that screw because of the 'law'. i am for unions, but lack of accountability makes them do whatever they want and not do anything in time. i think i will write a blog post soon. edit - also these are the same guys who call themselves patriots and proudly support trump.

KirinDave 8y ago
So the JAW doesn't exist? Toyota encodes many union mechanisms directly into the corporate structure. The government itself makes it very hard to fire factory workers and backs pensions. So if you're looking for a justification for this, it seems like Unions are more of a scapegoat than a root cause. It seems as unfair to blame their union affiliation as it does to suggest that it's because they're Trump voters. Also worth noting that Tesla, an anti-union shop by all accounts, actually straight up missed their Model 3 targets while union shops (notably Chevrolet, but also Nissan) managed to get mass-market-priced full EVs on the road with good marks for quality, safety and performance within their price category. So maybe it's just America itself that has the issues?
- garyfirestorm 8y ago
  I'm not blaming the existence of union for these issues. The lack of accountability is my complaint. If you tell any employee that no matter what they do, their job is protected, you'll find them laughing at you when you assign them a task. If you look at Ford, they had to kill majority of their sedans because of the development costs and profitability. I live in this environment and I see daily tasks that take minutes take hours to get done. Bigger projects which takes weeks or months get dragged all the time. People still get paid and there are no consequences if objectives are not met. Considering these points, the management is forced to drop projects, kill certain cars or keep using old stuff (not fuel efficient). I do sincerely accept that the union is not the only bottle neck and sometimes we see wastage from upper management, but the magnitude of impact the union attitude has on work environment and productivity is considerably high. Tesla is altogether a different story. They just don't have the expertise to make things happen. The processes that the big 3 car companies have in place, developed over time, are not exact science. Putting a car together is a complex task. I definitely am a big fan of Tesla and love the way they do things, they have grossly underestimated the complexity of building a car.

KirinDave 8y ago

> Being forced to keep around dead weight because they can't be fired, the potential for an entire company to be shutdown due to a union strike, being forced to only hire individuals who are part of a union, regardless of whether they're the most qualified. For workers, they may be fine with the pay and benefits provided by the company, but get forced to pay union dues and deal with strikes and walkouts because union leadership says so. Right, but these are arguments that may or may not be based in reality. They're also based around a worldview that inherently says, "If you are not very good at your job compared to the most productive and dedicated people, you deserve to be fired." This is in fact a very modern view focused around the idea that efficiency-maximization is a pillar to societal happiness at large. In M. Friedman's case he very literally argued that. In reality, a better way for unions often aggressively deal with people who refuse to perform at all (because many jobs are union-only and if the union kicks you out, you're in trouble). Even teachers unions, the target of every union grudge in the US, do this. The disagreement is what to do with people who simply aren't very good at their jobs relative to peak producers. As we list the various American oppositions to unions, I think it's important to point out how these ideas are shaped and how they conflict with the Union's policies and the existing neoliberal economic establishment.