5 ms·

We replace people who are curious about science with people who are good at getting grants. Iron law of bureaucracy at work.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 8y ago
"If you pay a man a salary for doing research, he and you will want to have something to point to at the end of the year to show that the money has not been wasted. In promising work of the highest class, however, results do not come in this regular fashion, in fact years may pass without any tangible result being obtained, and the position of the paid worker would be very embarrassing and he would naturally take to work on a lower, or at any rate a different plane where he could be sure of getting year by year tangible results which would justify his salary. The position is this: You want one kind of research, but, if you pay a man to do it, it will drive him to research of a different kind. The only thing to do is to pay him for doing something else and give him enough leisure to do research for the love of it." Quote attributed to J.J. Thompson via a previous HN comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14022158 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14022158
- iguy 8y ago
  You may enjoy the Connes interview linked here, discussing (in the 2nd half) French vs US vs Soviet systems: http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2018/09/the-french-way-alain-connes-interview.html http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2018/09/the-french-way-alain-co...
- ataturk 8y ago
  That quote is very profound. I know from my own doctoral research how difficult innovation is and how stressful that becomes. I want to also have a personal life outside of just working and what I saw at my university was unhealthy to the extreme. I got my doctorate, but I quit academia. You only get one life to live and I couldn't see why I should work endless hours for shit wages, worrying about obtaining funding year in and year out, dealing with the terrible communists who run US campuses these days, and so on. It was a completely undesirable lifestyle with only a few redeeming qualities. Bottom line, for me it was less headache to become a software engineer and take longer vacations once in awhile. I would rather do hard research or R&D, but it is what it is.
  - frankling_ 8y ago
    Honest question: what do you mean by "communists who run US campuses these days"? Is this about bureaucracy, or particular leftist views being upheld, or something else entirely?
- PJDK 8y ago
  Could someone with more experience expound on why this is the case? Could you not just alter slightly the desired output? - Here's the 5 things we tried this year, why we failed and why we think it's still worth pursuing
- dredmorbius 8y ago
  I can trace that to 1971, BACKGROUND FOR MAN, PHYLLIS DOLHINOW - VINCENT M. SARICH https://books.google.com/books?id=FvDpJ2ulVSUC&q="If+you+pay+a+man+a+salary+for+doing+research,+he+and+you+will+want+to+have+something+to+point+to+at+the+end+of+the+year+to+show+that+the+money+has+not+been+wasted."&dq="If+you+pay+a+man+a+salary+for+doing+research,+he+and+you+will+want+to+have+something+to+point+to+at+the+end+of+the+year+to+show+that+the+money+has+not+been+wasted."&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwic3YfpytndAhXET98KHS7ZDicQ6AEILTAC https://books.google.com/books?id=FvDpJ2ulVSUC&q="If+you+pay...

RcouF1uZ4gsC 8y ago

"If you pay a man a salary for doing research, he and you will want to have something to point to at the end of the year to show that the money has not been wasted. In promising work of the highest class, however, results do not come in this regular fashion, in fact years may pass without any tangible result being obtained, and the position of the paid worker would be very embarrassing and he would naturally take to work on a lower, or at any rate a different plane where he could be sure of getting year by year tangible results which would justify his salary. The position is this: You want one kind of research, but, if you pay a man to do it, it will drive him to research of a different kind. The only thing to do is to pay him for doing something else and give him enough leisure to do research for the love of it." Quote attributed to J.J. Thompson via a previous HN comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14022158 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14022158

iguy 8y ago
You may enjoy the Connes interview linked here, discussing (in the 2nd half) French vs US vs Soviet systems: http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2018/09/the-french-way-alain-connes-interview.html http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2018/09/the-french-way-alain-co...
ataturk 8y ago
That quote is very profound. I know from my own doctoral research how difficult innovation is and how stressful that becomes. I want to also have a personal life outside of just working and what I saw at my university was unhealthy to the extreme. I got my doctorate, but I quit academia. You only get one life to live and I couldn't see why I should work endless hours for shit wages, worrying about obtaining funding year in and year out, dealing with the terrible communists who run US campuses these days, and so on. It was a completely undesirable lifestyle with only a few redeeming qualities. Bottom line, for me it was less headache to become a software engineer and take longer vacations once in awhile. I would rather do hard research or R&D, but it is what it is.
- frankling_ 8y ago
  Honest question: what do you mean by "communists who run US campuses these days"? Is this about bureaucracy, or particular leftist views being upheld, or something else entirely?
PJDK 8y ago
Could someone with more experience expound on why this is the case? Could you not just alter slightly the desired output? - Here's the 5 things we tried this year, why we failed and why we think it's still worth pursuing
dredmorbius 8y ago
I can trace that to 1971, BACKGROUND FOR MAN, PHYLLIS DOLHINOW - VINCENT M. SARICH https://books.google.com/books?id=FvDpJ2ulVSUC&q="If+you+pay+a+man+a+salary+for+doing+research,+he+and+you+will+want+to+have+something+to+point+to+at+the+end+of+the+year+to+show+that+the+money+has+not+been+wasted."&dq="If+you+pay+a+man+a+salary+for+doing+research,+he+and+you+will+want+to+have+something+to+point+to+at+the+end+of+the+year+to+show+that+the+money+has+not+been+wasted."&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwic3YfpytndAhXET98KHS7ZDicQ6AEILTAC https://books.google.com/books?id=FvDpJ2ulVSUC&q="If+you+pay...