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> I do take issue with many codes of conduct in the tech space, because I think they tend to be written in a bubble world where everyone assumes that everyone e

> I do take issue with many codes of conduct in the tech space, because I think they tend to be written in a bubble world where everyone assumes that everyone else thinks just like them, but a Code of Merit sounds like it's even more problematic. I take issue with them because a Codes of Conduct doesn't make a space safe. And also because if we need a written list of what behaviour is tolerated, we have a much greater problem than a code of conduct will solve. I've seen people write about the former; I haven't about the latter. I find a CoC offputting because it equates me with the lowest of the low. It says I can't be trusted to behave like a decent human being and need to be told what's right and what's wrong, like being back at school. I also see it as darker than "assumes that everyone else thinks just like them". Some - not all - are about controlling the world into the form the CoC proponent(s) want it to be. The CoC goes beyond its words and into society. Neither do I support the Meritocracy thing, as I've had it used on me too many times by people who are super-smart and see that as a reason to be jerks.

pjc50 8y ago
> It says I can't be trusted to behave like a decent human being and need to be told what's right and what's wrong. Do you leave your door unlocked and your keys in your car? If not, aren't you assuming that there are some people out there who can't be trusted? If I come to your house and find it locked, should I be insulted that you've not "trusted me to behave like a decent human being"?
- pbowyer 8y ago
  > Do you leave your door unlocked and your keys in your car? If not, aren't you assuming that there are some people out there who can't be trusted? If I come to your house and find it locked, should I be insulted that you've not "trusted me to behave like a decent human being"? Are you meaning to equate those who don't follow CoC's to criminals? My response would be that those are societal norms, we define the transgressors as law breakers, and have a criminal system to deal with them. People take precautions against them. In the same way I expect to walk into a pub and not get punched in the face, I expect to take part in an open source project and not shit all over someone / be shat on.
geofft 8y ago
> I find a CoC offputting because it equates me with the lowest of the low. It says I can't be trusted to behave like a decent human being and need to be told what's right and what's wrong, like being back at school. Do you have the same reaction to automated linters or being told to write unit tests? What about the enforcement sections of the GPL? I mean, you, not being the lowest of the low, aren't going to write buggy code or reuse software unfairly, right? Isn't it an insult for people to imply that you might?
- madmax96 8y ago
  > Do you have the same reaction to automated linters or being told to write unit tests? There's a huge difference between technical processes that have gone through extensive peer-review processes and survived decades-long debates until a technical community reached the consensus that the practices indeed produce better software and brand-new social practices that are difficult to universally enforce. Making the statement "I don't need a list of unprofessional conduct to maintain a professional community" must be true, since you could never enumerate all unprofessional conduct anyway. You'll either leave something out (so the trolls can say "na na na, you can't get me!", in which case the method didn't work) or you'll encompass too many behaviors, which means different trolls can selectively enforce the terms of the CoC. Either way, it seems like a losing scenario. >What about the enforcement sections of the GPL? The terms of the GPL are criticized by many; that's why some projects choose different licenses.
  - geofft 8y ago
    > There's a huge difference between technical processes that have gone through extensive peer-review processes and survived decades-long debates until a technical community reached the consensus that the practices indeed produce better software I'm curious - I've seen debates about test-driven development, or how to appropriately test things, but never debates about whether testing or automated linting itself produced better software. > The terms of the GPL are criticized by many; that's why some projects choose different licenses. Sure, but I've never heard anyone criticize it on the grounds that it insulted them or called them untrustworthy, and be taken seriously. Same with testing, come to think of it. There are lots of serious debates; "Are you calling me a bad coder" is not one of them. I'm happy to see debate about different forms of codes of conduct, but why are we taking "I am insulted by this" as a legitimate argument?

pjc50 8y ago

> It says I can't be trusted to behave like a decent human being and need to be told what's right and what's wrong. Do you leave your door unlocked and your keys in your car? If not, aren't you assuming that there are some people out there who can't be trusted? If I come to your house and find it locked, should I be insulted that you've not "trusted me to behave like a decent human being"?

pbowyer 8y ago
> Do you leave your door unlocked and your keys in your car? If not, aren't you assuming that there are some people out there who can't be trusted? If I come to your house and find it locked, should I be insulted that you've not "trusted me to behave like a decent human being"? Are you meaning to equate those who don't follow CoC's to criminals? My response would be that those are societal norms, we define the transgressors as law breakers, and have a criminal system to deal with them. People take precautions against them. In the same way I expect to walk into a pub and not get punched in the face, I expect to take part in an open source project and not shit all over someone / be shat on.

geofft 8y ago

> I find a CoC offputting because it equates me with the lowest of the low. It says I can't be trusted to behave like a decent human being and need to be told what's right and what's wrong, like being back at school. Do you have the same reaction to automated linters or being told to write unit tests? What about the enforcement sections of the GPL? I mean, you, not being the lowest of the low, aren't going to write buggy code or reuse software unfairly, right? Isn't it an insult for people to imply that you might?

madmax96 8y ago
> Do you have the same reaction to automated linters or being told to write unit tests? There's a huge difference between technical processes that have gone through extensive peer-review processes and survived decades-long debates until a technical community reached the consensus that the practices indeed produce better software and brand-new social practices that are difficult to universally enforce. Making the statement "I don't need a list of unprofessional conduct to maintain a professional community" must be true, since you could never enumerate all unprofessional conduct anyway. You'll either leave something out (so the trolls can say "na na na, you can't get me!", in which case the method didn't work) or you'll encompass too many behaviors, which means different trolls can selectively enforce the terms of the CoC. Either way, it seems like a losing scenario. >What about the enforcement sections of the GPL? The terms of the GPL are criticized by many; that's why some projects choose different licenses.
- geofft 8y ago
  > There's a huge difference between technical processes that have gone through extensive peer-review processes and survived decades-long debates until a technical community reached the consensus that the practices indeed produce better software I'm curious - I've seen debates about test-driven development, or how to appropriately test things, but never debates about whether testing or automated linting itself produced better software. > The terms of the GPL are criticized by many; that's why some projects choose different licenses. Sure, but I've never heard anyone criticize it on the grounds that it insulted them or called them untrustworthy, and be taken seriously. Same with testing, come to think of it. There are lots of serious debates; "Are you calling me a bad coder" is not one of them. I'm happy to see debate about different forms of codes of conduct, but why are we taking "I am insulted by this" as a legitimate argument?