10 ms·

>When Kosmic says he's tied with the TAS run at 4-1, that means his inputs are matched up exactly with the program's and he can't physically do any better. It

by mrob 8y ago

>When Kosmic says he's tied with the TAS run at 4-1, that means his inputs are matched up exactly with the program's and he can't physically do any better. It means he can't physically get a better time, but it does not mean his inputs are matched up exactly with the TAS. SMB1 level transitions are based around the "frame rule", which means you don't advance to the next level until the number of elapsed frames from the start of that level is a multiple of 21. This means it's possible to have slightly imperfect input on all levels except 8-4 (the last level, so no waiting to advance to the next level there) and still get the same time as the TAS (unless the TAS reached the end of the level with no frames to spare). The TAS aims to reach the end of each level as fast as possible even if it would mean no overall time saving because of the wait for the multiple of 21 frames. I think this mechanic has been very beneficial for speedrunning, because it gives clear sub-goals. When you hear runners talking about "saving a frame rule", that means reaching the end of the level in time for an earlier multiple of 21 frames.

lars_francke 8y ago
For anyone else wondering: TAS = Tool-assisted game movies http://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-super-mario-bros.html http://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-super-mario-bros.html
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  Tool Assisted Speedrun. It means you perform input to the game programmatically meaning you can set the input perfectly on a per-frame basis.
  - jamespo 8y ago
    what is the point of that
    - OscarCunningham 8y ago
      Just for fun, or to have a "theoretical optimum" to compare human speedruns to.
    - wingerlang 8y ago
      You could consider bicycling tool assisted running. It's just a different take on competing. Some people also use TAS's to find, reproduce and understand glitches for use in normal speedrun.
    - neetdavid 8y ago
      People use them as another tool for finding glitches and exploring the possibility space of the game's systems. They're basically using debugging tools and in some cases even looking at memory allocations etc. As for full length tool assisted runs, I just find them to be a fascinating new lens to examine these games under. It's cool (depending on who you ask...) to see what the game looks like when another computer program is piloting it perfectly towards the goal of 'finish as fast as possible'
    - kibwen 8y ago
      If normal speedruns are like playing speed chess, tool-assisted speedruns are like finding the theoretically-optimal solutions to chess problems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_problem). Both of them require intense devotion to the game, though the first emphasizes physical ability and execution while the second emphasizes exhaustive thinking.
    - dragontamer 8y ago
      Because NASCAR is fun, even if you are going at super-human speeds. And there is skill in maneuvering a car at super-human speeds. TAS players play the game frame-by-frame and seek theoretical perfection.
    - emodendroket 8y ago
      If you're just watching it's arguably more fun to watch, since it theoretically represents absolutely perfect play.
    - LocalH 8y ago
      It started out for pure entertainment. Now, they sometimes work with realtime speedrunners to optimize their strategies.
ilitirit 8y ago
> It means he can't physically get a better time ... using the same techniques the TAS does. It's possible (although unlikely) that a new glitch/exploit could be discovered that allows for faster times.
- make3 8y ago
  but then wouldn't TAS also be able to use it?
  - ilitirit 8y ago
    Yes, but this is referring to a specific TAS (the current fastest* known one), not a possible TAS. http://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-super-mario-bros.html http://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-super-mario-bros.html [*] It's also worth noting that there are 2 categories for TAS timing: Humanly possible vs TAS-only. The former meaning that it's possible in theory for a human to achieve under "normal" conditions, the latter implying the opposite e.g. using left + right inputs at the same time which is not possible on a normal NES pad. The TAS in question was the current theoretical limit for humans.
- kchoudhu 8y ago
  I thought glitches were not allowed?
  - nvarsj 8y ago
    Not at all. Speed runs rely heavily on glitches in the game to take advantage of.
    - crtasm 8y ago
      For many games the community create additional glitchless categories. Other common ones are warpless (don't use intended level skips) and 100% (collect/do everything).
  - songshu 8y ago
    If a glitch is severe enough it will result in a new category of competition being created. A glitch that saves a second here or there would likely be accepted in the main category. Frequently speedrun games also have categories for how much has been completed in the run, like Any% meaning you just got the end credits up, or 100% meaning you collected all the items on the way or whatever
baby 8y ago
What proves that he's not switching to a TAS from times to times?
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  If it needs to be verified, a camera on his hands would be enough for experts to be able to see that. Also if the inputs are visualised on screen.
  - darepublic 8y ago
    What if he uses prerecorded footage of his hands, created by using some kind of TAS programmed to perform a 4:55 run in human style and then outputs those button presses to a screen. So instead of playing the game, he just presses what he sees on the screen. It would take a lot of work but would arguably be a lot easier than actually accomplishing the real run. Then, the footage is just TAS footage and the camera on his hands is also prerecorded. Then he just has to read out the comments on stream as this charade is going on and make sly responses to it I guess my point is that, although I trust the veracity of this record, one should not underestimate the potential for cheating.
    - JoshTriplett 8y ago
      > So instead of playing the game, he just presses what he sees on the screen. It would take a lot of work but would arguably be a lot easier than actually accomplishing the real run. First, matching prerecorded input with the frame-precision required would be nearly as difficult as doing the run, if not more so. At this point, he's already trying to produce very specific inputs that require frame-precision; he's not reacting to what's on the screen and adapting on the fly. Second, some TAS techniques are incredibly difficult for a human to replicate, and there'd be an expectation that he can replicate those tricks at least sometimes. Third, some of the techniques for detecting this kind of cheating include carefully watching the inputs to see if they're ever just the slightest bit late or early.
- Fej 8y ago
  That's a technique called splicing, specifically it refers to "splicing" two videos in the middle, in this case one with real input and one faked. It is surprisingly possible (and often easy) to detect splices based on minute details. Splicing isn't always cheating, it can be used for other reasons. I can't prove that he isn't, strictly speaking, but Kosmic is a highly respected runner and has the skills to make this record.

by mrob 8y ago

lars_francke 8y ago

For anyone else wondering: TAS = Tool-assisted game movies http://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-super-mario-bros.html http://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-super-mario-bros.html

beaconstudios 8y ago
Tool Assisted Speedrun. It means you perform input to the game programmatically meaning you can set the input perfectly on a per-frame basis.
- jamespo 8y ago
  what is the point of that
  - OscarCunningham 8y ago
    Just for fun, or to have a "theoretical optimum" to compare human speedruns to.
  - wingerlang 8y ago
    You could consider bicycling tool assisted running. It's just a different take on competing. Some people also use TAS's to find, reproduce and understand glitches for use in normal speedrun.
  - neetdavid 8y ago
    People use them as another tool for finding glitches and exploring the possibility space of the game's systems. They're basically using debugging tools and in some cases even looking at memory allocations etc. As for full length tool assisted runs, I just find them to be a fascinating new lens to examine these games under. It's cool (depending on who you ask...) to see what the game looks like when another computer program is piloting it perfectly towards the goal of 'finish as fast as possible'
  - kibwen 8y ago
    If normal speedruns are like playing speed chess, tool-assisted speedruns are like finding the theoretically-optimal solutions to chess problems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_problem). Both of them require intense devotion to the game, though the first emphasizes physical ability and execution while the second emphasizes exhaustive thinking.
  - dragontamer 8y ago
    Because NASCAR is fun, even if you are going at super-human speeds. And there is skill in maneuvering a car at super-human speeds. TAS players play the game frame-by-frame and seek theoretical perfection.
  - emodendroket 8y ago
    If you're just watching it's arguably more fun to watch, since it theoretically represents absolutely perfect play.
  - LocalH 8y ago
    It started out for pure entertainment. Now, they sometimes work with realtime speedrunners to optimize their strategies.

ilitirit 8y ago

> It means he can't physically get a better time ... using the same techniques the TAS does. It's possible (although unlikely) that a new glitch/exploit could be discovered that allows for faster times.

make3 8y ago
but then wouldn't TAS also be able to use it?
- ilitirit 8y ago
  Yes, but this is referring to a specific TAS (the current fastest* known one), not a possible TAS. http://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-super-mario-bros.html http://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-super-mario-bros.html [*] It's also worth noting that there are 2 categories for TAS timing: Humanly possible vs TAS-only. The former meaning that it's possible in theory for a human to achieve under "normal" conditions, the latter implying the opposite e.g. using left + right inputs at the same time which is not possible on a normal NES pad. The TAS in question was the current theoretical limit for humans.
kchoudhu 8y ago
I thought glitches were not allowed?
- nvarsj 8y ago
  Not at all. Speed runs rely heavily on glitches in the game to take advantage of.
  - crtasm 8y ago
    For many games the community create additional glitchless categories. Other common ones are warpless (don't use intended level skips) and 100% (collect/do everything).
- songshu 8y ago
  If a glitch is severe enough it will result in a new category of competition being created. A glitch that saves a second here or there would likely be accepted in the main category. Frequently speedrun games also have categories for how much has been completed in the run, like Any% meaning you just got the end credits up, or 100% meaning you collected all the items on the way or whatever

baby 8y ago

What proves that he's not switching to a TAS from times to times?

Cthulhu_ 8y ago
If it needs to be verified, a camera on his hands would be enough for experts to be able to see that. Also if the inputs are visualised on screen.
- darepublic 8y ago
  What if he uses prerecorded footage of his hands, created by using some kind of TAS programmed to perform a 4:55 run in human style and then outputs those button presses to a screen. So instead of playing the game, he just presses what he sees on the screen. It would take a lot of work but would arguably be a lot easier than actually accomplishing the real run. Then, the footage is just TAS footage and the camera on his hands is also prerecorded. Then he just has to read out the comments on stream as this charade is going on and make sly responses to it I guess my point is that, although I trust the veracity of this record, one should not underestimate the potential for cheating.
  - JoshTriplett 8y ago
    > So instead of playing the game, he just presses what he sees on the screen. It would take a lot of work but would arguably be a lot easier than actually accomplishing the real run. First, matching prerecorded input with the frame-precision required would be nearly as difficult as doing the run, if not more so. At this point, he's already trying to produce very specific inputs that require frame-precision; he's not reacting to what's on the screen and adapting on the fly. Second, some TAS techniques are incredibly difficult for a human to replicate, and there'd be an expectation that he can replicate those tricks at least sometimes. Third, some of the techniques for detecting this kind of cheating include carefully watching the inputs to see if they're ever just the slightest bit late or early.
Fej 8y ago
That's a technique called splicing, specifically it refers to "splicing" two videos in the middle, in this case one with real input and one faked. It is surprisingly possible (and often easy) to detect splices based on minute details. Splicing isn't always cheating, it can be used for other reasons. I can't prove that he isn't, strictly speaking, but Kosmic is a highly respected runner and has the skills to make this record.