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>> it's purely an exercise in philosophy and logic > It's of little use as long as it is. I didn't mean to imply uselessness; my previous comment was worded p

by Reelin 8y ago

>> it's purely an exercise in philosophy and logic > It's of little use as long as it is. I didn't mean to imply uselessness; my previous comment was worded poorly. Aside from the spiritual aspects, logic and philosophy alone often manage to achieve (or form the basis of) incredibly useful things. > the whole clue is a thing we can experience directly The trouble I have with this is that trying to differentiate between "true self is separate from body" and "body is all there is" based on an experience seems to beg the question. If the former is true, then the experience is what it seems. But if the latter is true, then the experience itself is yet another bodily event - one that results in you (the body in this case) coming away with a false understanding. A parallel might be someone who feels quite certain about a fact (ie experiences a sense of knowledge), but that "knowledge" later turns out to be false. In light of this, how can we use a direct experience to differentiate the above? Of course this line of reasoning can be (repeatedly) applied to anything, so at some point I suppose we just have to accept that there are enough separate lines of evidence and that something is presumably true. But I don't think a single direct experience which itself involves the system in question (ie the body) is enough. As an aside, my rambling on about unknowable-ness isn't intended as an attack against your interpretation of things but rather just general pondering of the (current?) limits of human knowledge and experience.

qwerty456127 8y ago
Don't worry, I appreciate your care but don't mind "an attack against my interpretation" :-) It seems that I will have to introduce the actual Buddhist (Nyingma/Bön Dzogchen) non-duality interpretation of this in a more or less simplified way to make it (including the "We are all Kosh" part) more clear but be warned, it may sound a way too bizarre. I don't insist it's true and my initial intention was to leave it for the people interested in going this way to discover on themselves as it makes little if any sense before the experience. Ready? The "true self" you can directly perceive this way is just one for every sentient being (my true self = your true self, "by reference" not just "by value", it's the same object, not just same class) and it is kind of the absolute, the only thing that actually exists, everything else (including our feelings and beliefs (our ego), bodies, cars, events and everything) is an emanation of it, like a wave on the surface of a lake. The idea of everything being just an emanation of yourself seems less weird or even rationally obvious if you apply this to "everything in your dreams" but the real life is considered to be a phenomenon of little fundamental difference from a dream. I am not a real guru and may probably explain the things wrong so whoever interested should better watch a lecture of the actual Buddhist (Bön) teacher[1] (it's rather fun, easy to listen and made as free of any religious mumbo-jumbo as possible, the chant in the beginning is very short but the guided meditation that follows the introductory speech is important). Obviously, the interpretation of a skeptic materialist capable to experience this "true self" and observe their ego is going to be it hardly has anything to do with any kind of absolute and probably is not a real object (needless to say shared between everybody) but just a sort of feeling produced by our bodies. I believe neither of these interpretations can be rationally proven correct or wrong (it's a transcendental matter) but regardless to which one do you stick to it seems fairly easy to recognize that your feelings, your beliefs, your addictions, your DNA and dopamine receptors are you in the same degree as your left hand thumb is. Keeping consciously aware of this as constantly as possible may gift a person with an amazing level of emotional balance and having the direct experience of "the true self" can strengthen it to an incredible level (and as a bonus probably let you actually feel less pain when it hurts physically[2]). Deep recognition of the Buddhist interpretation ("rigpa") also gives an awesome sense of union with everybody and everything, blissful presence in every single moment and sets your free of sorrow and worrying. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frQVcizEkmI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frQVcizEkmI [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17935554 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17935554

by Reelin 8y ago

qwerty456127 8y ago

Don't worry, I appreciate your care but don't mind "an attack against my interpretation" :-) It seems that I will have to introduce the actual Buddhist (Nyingma/Bön Dzogchen) non-duality interpretation of this in a more or less simplified way to make it (including the "We are all Kosh" part) more clear but be warned, it may sound a way too bizarre. I don't insist it's true and my initial intention was to leave it for the people interested in going this way to discover on themselves as it makes little if any sense before the experience. Ready? The "true self" you can directly perceive this way is just one for every sentient being (my true self = your true self, "by reference" not just "by value", it's the same object, not just same class) and it is kind of the absolute, the only thing that actually exists, everything else (including our feelings and beliefs (our ego), bodies, cars, events and everything) is an emanation of it, like a wave on the surface of a lake. The idea of everything being just an emanation of yourself seems less weird or even rationally obvious if you apply this to "everything in your dreams" but the real life is considered to be a phenomenon of little fundamental difference from a dream. I am not a real guru and may probably explain the things wrong so whoever interested should better watch a lecture of the actual Buddhist (Bön) teacher[1] (it's rather fun, easy to listen and made as free of any religious mumbo-jumbo as possible, the chant in the beginning is very short but the guided meditation that follows the introductory speech is important). Obviously, the interpretation of a skeptic materialist capable to experience this "true self" and observe their ego is going to be it hardly has anything to do with any kind of absolute and probably is not a real object (needless to say shared between everybody) but just a sort of feeling produced by our bodies. I believe neither of these interpretations can be rationally proven correct or wrong (it's a transcendental matter) but regardless to which one do you stick to it seems fairly easy to recognize that your feelings, your beliefs, your addictions, your DNA and dopamine receptors are you in the same degree as your left hand thumb is. Keeping consciously aware of this as constantly as possible may gift a person with an amazing level of emotional balance and having the direct experience of "the true self" can strengthen it to an incredible level (and as a bonus probably let you actually feel less pain when it hurts physically[2]). Deep recognition of the Buddhist interpretation ("rigpa") also gives an awesome sense of union with everybody and everything, blissful presence in every single moment and sets your free of sorrow and worrying. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frQVcizEkmI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frQVcizEkmI [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17935554 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17935554