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I work at an ad-tech startup, and I hear you. Ad-tech has lot of rotten apples. Advertising done right (aka unobtrusive, privacy conscious, and value additive)

by dm8 8y ago

I work at an ad-tech startup, and I hear you. Ad-tech has lot of rotten apples. Advertising done right (aka unobtrusive, privacy conscious, and value additive) is a great for free information exchange. Bad ad is always bad, but ad may not always be bad. There are lot of people working on it (including my startup) to solve the problem that are fraught with ad-tech in general and we are making progress but there is lot of inertia in the industry when it comes to change.

ajmurmann 8y ago
How can an advertisement not be bad? Ultimately it's always the goal to get someone to buy something they otherwise wouldn't. Even if you catch someone when they are already are looking to buy a product from your category you are trying to get them to buy your product instead of the competitor's. What would be helpful to the user in that moment is a product comparison that's honest and unbiased and not an advertisement. The goals of the advertiser and the consumer are inherently at odds. I'd be genuinely excited to learn otherwise.
- roenxi 8y ago
  A lot of advertising is either raising awareness that a product category exists at all, or comforting potential buyers that people won't laugh at them if they buy a thing and it turns out to be a bad idea. Consider the iPhone advertising campaign back in '07, modern smartphones would have taken another decade to take hold if Apple hadn't done such a masterful job telling people that a new category was being born. Sometimes people will advocate 'doing your own research'. That is at odds with the fact that most people are incapable (not just disinterested in, but incapable) of evaluating all the decisions they make daily basis. Research the decisions you understand, copy someone else for the rest is the best strategy. In that environment, even a good product needs some exposure to raise awareness that it exists. The game is more complicated than advertisers hypnotising an otherwise unwilling public.
- throwaway8879 8y ago
  What exactly do you mean by "bad" here? If you're making a moral or value judgement about ads being bad, then I don't know how to respond to that. Animals of all types are evolved to acquire resources, at any cost. And humans have taken the social aspect of resource acquisition to an extreme level. I'm not a big fan of ads either, but people do what they do. And making moral or value judgements about primate behavior is extremely one-dimensional.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - ajmurmann 8y ago
    I mainly copied the "bad" wording from the parent comment. However, I think my last sentence wraps it up best for me: "The goals of the advertiser and the consumer are inherently at odds".
- fermienrico 8y ago
  I am an engineer and I love going to trade exhibitions. These shows are full of cool new tech once a year (Messe Dusselldorf, etc) and not only do you interact in a positive social way, but the people you meet you end up building long term customer-vendor relationships. Perhaps it doesn't happen in the software but I work in Semiconductor industry. You can ask the same to anyone say in Fabrics industry or Electronics and they'll say the same. Trade shows are amazing and that's how advertising should be done - with respect, mutual interest and consent.
- snaky 8y ago
  It depends on how useful the advertising is. It's not the tracking or privacy the regular user is most concerned about, it's the everyday experience that tells him advertising is still stupid and annoying. Despite all the billion dollars ML systems with gazillion of factors analyzed on petabytes of data, all we've got is 'hey, you googled for a 10uA accuracy bench multimeter yesterday! now for two weeks we will show you all the $15 multimeters ever existed! (and most of them will be the same two Chinese models with different OEM labels)'. Look at this (don't worry, it's short one-page) thread for example of how it might be instead - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/benchtop-dmm-advise-needed-%281-ua-to-10-a-2w4w-ui-dual-display-labview%29/ https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/benchtop-dmm-advise-n... - and what if the message from Tek engineer that closed a deal was actually advertising? He just posted a link to relevant appnote, that's it. What if automatical advertising system showed the same link to the same appnote as an advertising to the same user?
  - tannhaeuser 8y ago
    For me, privacy and tracking is the problem. I have nothing against ads per se. I guess we should work on meaningful stats for ad billing that doesn't involve tracking to go back to content-based rather than targetted ads.
- dm8 8y ago
  > How can an advertisement not be bad? Ultimately it's always the goal to get someone to buy something they otherwise wouldn't. Brand/product awareness. Sometimes you don't know what you want. And sometimes you don't know if certain product/solution exists for the problem you are facing. Believe it or not, one of my favorite apps is MyFitnessPal, I downloaded it via an ad because I was looking was health/fitness category product but never heard of MFP (few years ago before they were popular). I thought I will give it a shot and downloaded and solved my problems plus I discovered few more use cases for my health/fitness related interests. Another example (rather misconception), "Google became famous via word of mouth". No, Google had prominent ad placement (aka powered by Google which was part of their contract) as a part of their deal with providing search on AOL/Yahoo portals. When non-tech savvy users searched on these portals they were exposed to Google and were exposed to much more superior search engine than that was available.
  - ajmurmann 8y ago
    Your MyFitnessPal example seems more like luck to me than the norm. Ideally Google (or something similar) would naturally suggest MyFitnessPal to you based on your search history and ideally you'd get a comparison with other similar products. If Google knows you are interested in the product, why do they require payment from the vendor to tell you about the solution to your need? Of course advertisements lead to spread of new products. That just means they work, not that they are necessarily beneficial to users. Every advertiser might believe that their product is beneficial to the user and therefore they are helping the consumer by telling them about the product. In reality that cannot be true for most advertisers.
- scarface74 8y ago
  There are a lot of products that I’ve either bought, recommended, or put up on my “list of things I’ll keep in my mind if I’m in the market” based solely on ads - mostly podcast ads: BackBlaze - I think is s great service. Hover: Anything is better than Godaddy. Linode: I’ve recommended it to people who wanted cheap hosting. Casper: recommended to a college student. His parents were happy with it. SquareSpace - anytime someone wants a website, I recommend them first. Ting - I recommended someone check it out. Betterment - I did my own research but I first heard about it on a podcast. Synology: on my list when my hard drive fills up. Eero - I don’t need it, but if someone asked me what to get, it would be the top of mind.
  - dingaling 8y ago
    > Eero - I don’t need it, but if someone asked me what to get, it would be the top of mind. I think that illustates the OP's point well; you don't have need or experience of the product, but the psychological infiltration of ads means that you'll recommend it anyway.
fermienrico 8y ago
I feel like Advertisement should be a “pull” rather than “push” model. I want to see different vendors when I decide to buy something. But when I’m on Instagram and browsing pictures, please don’t sell me a chef’s knife or a guitar. I have no experience in marketing and advertisement. But from a user standpoint, I want to look through Yellow Pages and Vendor catalogs. Not bombarded with ads all the time. What are your thoughts?
- wingerlang 8y ago
  I feel like Advertisement should be a “pull” rather than “push” model. Isn't that the literal opposite of its definition?
- dm8 8y ago
  Absolutely and you have your preferences. The "pull" model advertising tend to be extremely expensive. For example, search advertising in search engines. That is known as intent driven ads, where user is clearly mentioning their intent. "Push" advertising can work great as long as user is not bombarded with too many ads. Also, ad creative copy needs to be exceptional to make it work. In real work, a good example of "push" advertising model is billboard advertising or print advertising in magazines. Most people don't mind Apple ads on billboards (where they spend lot of $$) because they are done really well. Unfortunately, in push model on digital advertising is not always great due to poor quality of creatives or flashy/obstructive ads that distract users. Instagram does advertising surprisingly well but that's may by my opinion since I have seen lot of bad stuff in ad-tech. My GF works in textiles/product design world but loves ads on Instagram since she follows certain type of accounts related to work and she gets very context driven ads, which she loves. Similar to ads that you get in high end fashion magazine. Believe it or not lot of people buy magazines like Vogue for their advertising too. You can always mute ads from accounts that you don't find relevant. Some apps/companies are going towards providing ad free option (like Spotify) for users who don't want ads at all, I think that will get more and more traction in coming years..
  - quantum_magpie 8y ago
    >For example, search advertising in search engines. That is known as intent driven ads, where user is clearly mentioning their intent. Your example is still a "Push" ad. You're pushing your stuff without being asked. Looking for information on a topic is not a request for ads on that topic. A pull ad would be an ad catalogue, or a website built purely for ads where people would go to explore for new things/services/whatever if, and only if, they wanted to.

by dm8 8y ago

ajmurmann 8y ago

How can an advertisement not be bad? Ultimately it's always the goal to get someone to buy something they otherwise wouldn't. Even if you catch someone when they are already are looking to buy a product from your category you are trying to get them to buy your product instead of the competitor's. What would be helpful to the user in that moment is a product comparison that's honest and unbiased and not an advertisement. The goals of the advertiser and the consumer are inherently at odds. I'd be genuinely excited to learn otherwise.

roenxi 8y ago
A lot of advertising is either raising awareness that a product category exists at all, or comforting potential buyers that people won't laugh at them if they buy a thing and it turns out to be a bad idea. Consider the iPhone advertising campaign back in '07, modern smartphones would have taken another decade to take hold if Apple hadn't done such a masterful job telling people that a new category was being born. Sometimes people will advocate 'doing your own research'. That is at odds with the fact that most people are incapable (not just disinterested in, but incapable) of evaluating all the decisions they make daily basis. Research the decisions you understand, copy someone else for the rest is the best strategy. In that environment, even a good product needs some exposure to raise awareness that it exists. The game is more complicated than advertisers hypnotising an otherwise unwilling public.
throwaway8879 8y ago
What exactly do you mean by "bad" here? If you're making a moral or value judgement about ads being bad, then I don't know how to respond to that. Animals of all types are evolved to acquire resources, at any cost. And humans have taken the social aspect of resource acquisition to an extreme level. I'm not a big fan of ads either, but people do what they do. And making moral or value judgements about primate behavior is extremely one-dimensional.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- ajmurmann 8y ago
  I mainly copied the "bad" wording from the parent comment. However, I think my last sentence wraps it up best for me: "The goals of the advertiser and the consumer are inherently at odds".
fermienrico 8y ago
I am an engineer and I love going to trade exhibitions. These shows are full of cool new tech once a year (Messe Dusselldorf, etc) and not only do you interact in a positive social way, but the people you meet you end up building long term customer-vendor relationships. Perhaps it doesn't happen in the software but I work in Semiconductor industry. You can ask the same to anyone say in Fabrics industry or Electronics and they'll say the same. Trade shows are amazing and that's how advertising should be done - with respect, mutual interest and consent.
snaky 8y ago
It depends on how useful the advertising is. It's not the tracking or privacy the regular user is most concerned about, it's the everyday experience that tells him advertising is still stupid and annoying. Despite all the billion dollars ML systems with gazillion of factors analyzed on petabytes of data, all we've got is 'hey, you googled for a 10uA accuracy bench multimeter yesterday! now for two weeks we will show you all the $15 multimeters ever existed! (and most of them will be the same two Chinese models with different OEM labels)'. Look at this (don't worry, it's short one-page) thread for example of how it might be instead - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/benchtop-dmm-advise-needed-%281-ua-to-10-a-2w4w-ui-dual-display-labview%29/ https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/benchtop-dmm-advise-n... - and what if the message from Tek engineer that closed a deal was actually advertising? He just posted a link to relevant appnote, that's it. What if automatical advertising system showed the same link to the same appnote as an advertising to the same user?
- tannhaeuser 8y ago
  For me, privacy and tracking is the problem. I have nothing against ads per se. I guess we should work on meaningful stats for ad billing that doesn't involve tracking to go back to content-based rather than targetted ads.
dm8 8y ago
> How can an advertisement not be bad? Ultimately it's always the goal to get someone to buy something they otherwise wouldn't. Brand/product awareness. Sometimes you don't know what you want. And sometimes you don't know if certain product/solution exists for the problem you are facing. Believe it or not, one of my favorite apps is MyFitnessPal, I downloaded it via an ad because I was looking was health/fitness category product but never heard of MFP (few years ago before they were popular). I thought I will give it a shot and downloaded and solved my problems plus I discovered few more use cases for my health/fitness related interests. Another example (rather misconception), "Google became famous via word of mouth". No, Google had prominent ad placement (aka powered by Google which was part of their contract) as a part of their deal with providing search on AOL/Yahoo portals. When non-tech savvy users searched on these portals they were exposed to Google and were exposed to much more superior search engine than that was available.
- ajmurmann 8y ago
  Your MyFitnessPal example seems more like luck to me than the norm. Ideally Google (or something similar) would naturally suggest MyFitnessPal to you based on your search history and ideally you'd get a comparison with other similar products. If Google knows you are interested in the product, why do they require payment from the vendor to tell you about the solution to your need? Of course advertisements lead to spread of new products. That just means they work, not that they are necessarily beneficial to users. Every advertiser might believe that their product is beneficial to the user and therefore they are helping the consumer by telling them about the product. In reality that cannot be true for most advertisers.
scarface74 8y ago
There are a lot of products that I’ve either bought, recommended, or put up on my “list of things I’ll keep in my mind if I’m in the market” based solely on ads - mostly podcast ads: BackBlaze - I think is s great service. Hover: Anything is better than Godaddy. Linode: I’ve recommended it to people who wanted cheap hosting. Casper: recommended to a college student. His parents were happy with it. SquareSpace - anytime someone wants a website, I recommend them first. Ting - I recommended someone check it out. Betterment - I did my own research but I first heard about it on a podcast. Synology: on my list when my hard drive fills up. Eero - I don’t need it, but if someone asked me what to get, it would be the top of mind.
- dingaling 8y ago
  > Eero - I don’t need it, but if someone asked me what to get, it would be the top of mind. I think that illustates the OP's point well; you don't have need or experience of the product, but the psychological infiltration of ads means that you'll recommend it anyway.

fermienrico 8y ago

I feel like Advertisement should be a “pull” rather than “push” model. I want to see different vendors when I decide to buy something. But when I’m on Instagram and browsing pictures, please don’t sell me a chef’s knife or a guitar. I have no experience in marketing and advertisement. But from a user standpoint, I want to look through Yellow Pages and Vendor catalogs. Not bombarded with ads all the time. What are your thoughts?

wingerlang 8y ago
I feel like Advertisement should be a “pull” rather than “push” model. Isn't that the literal opposite of its definition?
dm8 8y ago
Absolutely and you have your preferences. The "pull" model advertising tend to be extremely expensive. For example, search advertising in search engines. That is known as intent driven ads, where user is clearly mentioning their intent. "Push" advertising can work great as long as user is not bombarded with too many ads. Also, ad creative copy needs to be exceptional to make it work. In real work, a good example of "push" advertising model is billboard advertising or print advertising in magazines. Most people don't mind Apple ads on billboards (where they spend lot of $$) because they are done really well. Unfortunately, in push model on digital advertising is not always great due to poor quality of creatives or flashy/obstructive ads that distract users. Instagram does advertising surprisingly well but that's may by my opinion since I have seen lot of bad stuff in ad-tech. My GF works in textiles/product design world but loves ads on Instagram since she follows certain type of accounts related to work and she gets very context driven ads, which she loves. Similar to ads that you get in high end fashion magazine. Believe it or not lot of people buy magazines like Vogue for their advertising too. You can always mute ads from accounts that you don't find relevant. Some apps/companies are going towards providing ad free option (like Spotify) for users who don't want ads at all, I think that will get more and more traction in coming years..
- quantum_magpie 8y ago
  >For example, search advertising in search engines. That is known as intent driven ads, where user is clearly mentioning their intent. Your example is still a "Push" ad. You're pushing your stuff without being asked. Looking for information on a topic is not a request for ads on that topic. A pull ad would be an ad catalogue, or a website built purely for ads where people would go to explore for new things/services/whatever if, and only if, they wanted to.