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I think this is a rather unfair distortion of AA. I know many who have been tremendously helped by the program. It does work for many. It's explicitly unreligio

I think this is a rather unfair distortion of AA. I know many who have been tremendously helped by the program. It does work for many. It's explicitly unreligious -- they have a notion of a higher power, but make the conscious effort to allow each member to have their own definition of this higher power. It's not a religious process in the sense most would think of it. I also don't think it's fair to mention any one particular person's success or lack thereof with AA when making sweeping generalizations about the program (including the founder, which I don't know if what you say is actually correct or not -- it just doesn't matter). The other important thing that AA does, which is quite critical, is get individuals with problems frequent, implicit counseling from others who have been through the same thing. This is very hard to get in modern life in most other ways. It's possible, but AA makes it the default process. You can throw away all the other stuff about AA and dismiss it, and you are still left with the fact social therapy in any form is very effective, and AA promotes that.

coldtea 8y ago
>It's explicitly unreligious -- they have a notion of a higher power, but make the conscious effort to allow each member to have their own definition of this higher power. Very magnanimous of them. But why would a rehabilitation program have a notion "of a higher power", and especially it's own notion of it?
- Someguywhatever 8y ago
  Probably because it helps people? If it is useful in helping people to not harm themselves and others then I don't see anything wrong with that.
  - leetcrew 8y ago
    > If it is useful in helping people to not harm themselves and others this is a big if. the way AA is structured (they don't themselves collect any statistics about efficacy whatsoever) makes it extremely difficult to draw any conclusions about how helpful it is. as other people have said, AA essentially provides free group therapy, which is likely to be at least slightly helpful. i'm not sure there's any evidence to suggest that the 12 steps or higher power aspect yield any benefits over generic group drug counseling.
    - petyrbaelish 8y ago
      There is some evidence that the higher power business works[1]. Anyway, it will always be difficult to directly judge a particular organization rather than its methods. [1] The Power of Habit, by Charles Duhigg : while not scientifically spotless, the book directly addresses the methods of AA. To successfully establish a change in habit, one needs a belief that I can change : there is some sound evidence presented in the book. Smart Change, by Art Marckman : he is literally a scientist and I can't find anything scientifically incorrect in this book. He also mentions and gives evidence for the advantage of belief in one's ability to change : here the context is not directly AA.
Frondo 8y ago
When it's been studied for effectiveness, it turns out AA works for between 5% and 10% of the people in it; as it also turns out, that's about the same percentage of people for whom any group support program would work. This isn't a distortion, this is the empirical view of AA. As for explicitly unreligious, I would like to include the twelve steps here: 1) We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable. 2) Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3) Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 4) Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5) Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6) Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 7) Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. 8) Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 9) Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 10) Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. 11) Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. 12) Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. I am struggling to find an unreligious interpretation for steps 3, 5, 6, 7, 11, and 12, even if the "higher power" isn't an Abrahamic religion "God". What's a spiritual awakening to an atheist?
- TimTheTinker 8y ago
  I think the key here is that people function better, and break addictions better, when they realize and submit to the concept that they do not (and can't) have complete power and control over their own lives. The notion of a "higher power" or "God" can help people get into that posture of "letting go", which helps them find real support outside of themselves (and their addictions). Being a Christian myself, I know I function much better when I'm consciously in an attitude of trusting God -- it lets me relax and simply be who I am and do what I need to do, without worrying about "fixing things" outside of my control. (And yes, I do take an intellectually rigorous approach to my faith, but that's a different topic.)
icantdrive55 8y ago
The Rand Corporation did a study on AA years ago. AA didn't work in their study. Then again, it's basically all we have? I think my problem is when the AA beliefs are yelled at other members like they were laws. As a former alcoholic, I was able to taper off alcohol myself. The doctor said I was being stupid. I wasen't going to spend my last 20 grand on a Rehab. I was a mess back then, but tapering off is what worked for myself. (I personally feel many alcoholics have an underlying psychological problem that should be addressed.)
ionised 8y ago
> It's explicitly unreligious -- they have a notion of a higher power, but make the conscious effort to allow each member to have their own definition of this higher power. I knew about this 'misunderstanding' that most people have about AA and its 'higher power' thing. I actually attended meetings though, and their 'unreligious process' is actually anything but.

coldtea 8y ago

>It's explicitly unreligious -- they have a notion of a higher power, but make the conscious effort to allow each member to have their own definition of this higher power. Very magnanimous of them. But why would a rehabilitation program have a notion "of a higher power", and especially it's own notion of it?

Someguywhatever 8y ago
Probably because it helps people? If it is useful in helping people to not harm themselves and others then I don't see anything wrong with that.
- leetcrew 8y ago
  > If it is useful in helping people to not harm themselves and others this is a big if. the way AA is structured (they don't themselves collect any statistics about efficacy whatsoever) makes it extremely difficult to draw any conclusions about how helpful it is. as other people have said, AA essentially provides free group therapy, which is likely to be at least slightly helpful. i'm not sure there's any evidence to suggest that the 12 steps or higher power aspect yield any benefits over generic group drug counseling.
  - petyrbaelish 8y ago
    There is some evidence that the higher power business works[1]. Anyway, it will always be difficult to directly judge a particular organization rather than its methods. [1] The Power of Habit, by Charles Duhigg : while not scientifically spotless, the book directly addresses the methods of AA. To successfully establish a change in habit, one needs a belief that I can change : there is some sound evidence presented in the book. Smart Change, by Art Marckman : he is literally a scientist and I can't find anything scientifically incorrect in this book. He also mentions and gives evidence for the advantage of belief in one's ability to change : here the context is not directly AA.

Frondo 8y ago

When it's been studied for effectiveness, it turns out AA works for between 5% and 10% of the people in it; as it also turns out, that's about the same percentage of people for whom any group support program would work. This isn't a distortion, this is the empirical view of AA. As for explicitly unreligious, I would like to include the twelve steps here: 1) We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable. 2) Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. 3) Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. 4) Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. 5) Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. 6) Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. 7) Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. 8) Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 9) Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. 10) Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. 11) Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. 12) Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. I am struggling to find an unreligious interpretation for steps 3, 5, 6, 7, 11, and 12, even if the "higher power" isn't an Abrahamic religion "God". What's a spiritual awakening to an atheist?

TimTheTinker 8y ago
I think the key here is that people function better, and break addictions better, when they realize and submit to the concept that they do not (and can't) have complete power and control over their own lives. The notion of a "higher power" or "God" can help people get into that posture of "letting go", which helps them find real support outside of themselves (and their addictions). Being a Christian myself, I know I function much better when I'm consciously in an attitude of trusting God -- it lets me relax and simply be who I am and do what I need to do, without worrying about "fixing things" outside of my control. (And yes, I do take an intellectually rigorous approach to my faith, but that's a different topic.)

icantdrive55 8y ago

The Rand Corporation did a study on AA years ago. AA didn't work in their study. Then again, it's basically all we have? I think my problem is when the AA beliefs are yelled at other members like they were laws. As a former alcoholic, I was able to taper off alcohol myself. The doctor said I was being stupid. I wasen't going to spend my last 20 grand on a Rehab. I was a mess back then, but tapering off is what worked for myself. (I personally feel many alcoholics have an underlying psychological problem that should be addressed.)

ionised 8y ago

> It's explicitly unreligious -- they have a notion of a higher power, but make the conscious effort to allow each member to have their own definition of this higher power. I knew about this 'misunderstanding' that most people have about AA and its 'higher power' thing. I actually attended meetings though, and their 'unreligious process' is actually anything but.