4 ms·

The more specific statements about addicts become, the more cautious I tend to be. That said, I do at least agree that your quote is rather particular to AA, a

by mercer 8y ago

The more specific statements about addicts become, the more cautious I tend to be. That said, I do at least agree that your quote is rather particular to AA, and not shared by other programs, like SMART. The reason I hesitate to dismiss the AA view is that it strikes me as quite possible that, for a subset of addicts, any kind of hope of moderation can be disastrous. The way I see it, a less dichotomous perspective such as that of SMART is a better starting point than the 'once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic' approach of AA. And if SMART doesn't work, AA might very well be the only solution left.

hellofunk 8y ago
> The reason I hesitate to dismiss the AA view is that it strikes me as quite possible that, for a subset of addicts, any kind of hope of moderation can be disastrous. This, absolutely this. And since it is impossible to know in advance if moderation is possible for a given person, AA optimizes for the worst case scenario and assumes that no one can handle moderation, which has the greatest likelihood of success for all who use this strategy.
- jwdunne 8y ago
  Although different substance, I'm a heavy smoker and moderation has always proved impossible. I've kicked the habit once by NRT and once cold turkey. I'd gone well long enough for any physical withdrawal symptoms (many months). Both times, I thought just one wouldn't hurt, socially. Both times I started right back up again. There was a time I could smoke socially. I know people who did that and then went on to live a smoke free life. On the flip side, I've known smokers go years without and just one "oh go on then" hooked them right back on it. So if nicotine addiction is anything to go by, it would be possible in other addictions too. Unfortunately, the only alcoholics I knew lost their battle and never achieved any semblance of sobriety. They were both at a point where the withdrawal would kill them without clinical supervision.
- Frondo 8y ago
  AA isn't so much a recovery program as a submarine Christian conversion program; it's seldom better than nothing, and often worse. Very consistently and well-marketed, though. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irr... (Fun fact: when it started, it wasn't anonymous -- except one of the founders kept showing up drunk in public, and they realized this itself was pretty quickly debunking their success claims!)
  - hellofunk 8y ago
    I think this is a rather unfair distortion of AA. I know many who have been tremendously helped by the program. It does work for many. It's explicitly unreligious -- they have a notion of a higher power, but make the conscious effort to allow each member to have their own definition of this higher power. It's not a religious process in the sense most would think of it. I also don't think it's fair to mention any one particular person's success or lack thereof with AA when making sweeping generalizations about the program (including the founder, which I don't know if what you say is actually correct or not -- it just doesn't matter). The other important thing that AA does, which is quite critical, is get individuals with problems frequent, implicit counseling from others who have been through the same thing. This is very hard to get in modern life in most other ways. It's possible, but AA makes it the default process. You can throw away all the other stuff about AA and dismiss it, and you are still left with the fact social therapy in any form is very effective, and AA promotes that.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >It's explicitly unreligious -- they have a notion of a higher power, but make the conscious effort to allow each member to have their own definition of this higher power. Very magnanimous of them. But why would a rehabilitation program have a notion "of a higher power", and especially it's own notion of it?
      - Someguywhatever 8y ago
        Probably because it helps people? If it is useful in helping people to not harm themselves and others then I don't see anything wrong with that.
- dfee 8y ago
  Not necessarily. The AA model is then unforgiving. This can create tremendous pressure, with the consequences of non-compliance being infinitely greater. When it works, it works the best. When it doesn’t work, it’s a cliff. E.g. “20 years out the window”.
coleifer 8y ago
AA is sometimes jokingly referred to as the last house on the block (NA is the last room in that house). I know a great many recovered individuals that tried everything to get clean and only found success (and more importantly satisfaction) in 12 step.

by mercer 8y ago

hellofunk 8y ago

> The reason I hesitate to dismiss the AA view is that it strikes me as quite possible that, for a subset of addicts, any kind of hope of moderation can be disastrous. This, absolutely this. And since it is impossible to know in advance if moderation is possible for a given person, AA optimizes for the worst case scenario and assumes that no one can handle moderation, which has the greatest likelihood of success for all who use this strategy.

jwdunne 8y ago
Although different substance, I'm a heavy smoker and moderation has always proved impossible. I've kicked the habit once by NRT and once cold turkey. I'd gone well long enough for any physical withdrawal symptoms (many months). Both times, I thought just one wouldn't hurt, socially. Both times I started right back up again. There was a time I could smoke socially. I know people who did that and then went on to live a smoke free life. On the flip side, I've known smokers go years without and just one "oh go on then" hooked them right back on it. So if nicotine addiction is anything to go by, it would be possible in other addictions too. Unfortunately, the only alcoholics I knew lost their battle and never achieved any semblance of sobriety. They were both at a point where the withdrawal would kill them without clinical supervision.
Frondo 8y ago
AA isn't so much a recovery program as a submarine Christian conversion program; it's seldom better than nothing, and often worse. Very consistently and well-marketed, though. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irr... (Fun fact: when it started, it wasn't anonymous -- except one of the founders kept showing up drunk in public, and they realized this itself was pretty quickly debunking their success claims!)
- hellofunk 8y ago
  I think this is a rather unfair distortion of AA. I know many who have been tremendously helped by the program. It does work for many. It's explicitly unreligious -- they have a notion of a higher power, but make the conscious effort to allow each member to have their own definition of this higher power. It's not a religious process in the sense most would think of it. I also don't think it's fair to mention any one particular person's success or lack thereof with AA when making sweeping generalizations about the program (including the founder, which I don't know if what you say is actually correct or not -- it just doesn't matter). The other important thing that AA does, which is quite critical, is get individuals with problems frequent, implicit counseling from others who have been through the same thing. This is very hard to get in modern life in most other ways. It's possible, but AA makes it the default process. You can throw away all the other stuff about AA and dismiss it, and you are still left with the fact social therapy in any form is very effective, and AA promotes that.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >It's explicitly unreligious -- they have a notion of a higher power, but make the conscious effort to allow each member to have their own definition of this higher power. Very magnanimous of them. But why would a rehabilitation program have a notion "of a higher power", and especially it's own notion of it?
    - Someguywhatever 8y ago
      Probably because it helps people? If it is useful in helping people to not harm themselves and others then I don't see anything wrong with that.
dfee 8y ago
Not necessarily. The AA model is then unforgiving. This can create tremendous pressure, with the consequences of non-compliance being infinitely greater. When it works, it works the best. When it doesn’t work, it’s a cliff. E.g. “20 years out the window”.

coleifer 8y ago

AA is sometimes jokingly referred to as the last house on the block (NA is the last room in that house). I know a great many recovered individuals that tried everything to get clean and only found success (and more importantly satisfaction) in 12 step.