3 ms·

Well shit, if we're just making things up, then why stop there?

PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
What about the time that workers were literally gunned down for not allowing themselves to be taken advantage of. Once you look at historical examples, these crazy things people are saying end up being less crazy than what historically has happened. So, what happens when a worker signs such an agreement and it is upheld under arbitration?
- mikeash 8y ago
  Heck, it used to be pretty common to have workers with contracts that not only forbade them from working elsewhere, but forbade them from leaving their job at all. The hypothetical extreme of “sign a contract to sell yourself into slavery” is not actually very hypothetical nor extreme.
lovich 8y ago
These aren't made up. States are feeling compelled to add laws to limit non competes now, when they historically haven't, due to things like sandwich shops having non compete clauses for their minimum wage employees. Massachusetts recently enacted regulations on non competes in response to those kinds of abuses
- r_smart 8y ago
  Did those sandwich shops have non-competes that forbade the employee from working for any other company no matter the industry, or just sandwich shops? It's still stupid, but the hyperbole above is about non-competes forbidding getting any other job anywhere ever again.
  - lovich 8y ago
    If I recall correctly it was food prep, which covers any retail shop, like Walmart, that also serves food. That happens to cover the vast majority of all minimum wage work. As companies are growing larger and larger, and entering more and more industries, those uncurtailed non competes _are_ going to effectively be a complete stop on working at other firms. It's not stupid. We are watching this happen. If you think companies should be free from any of this regulation or even discussion about their practices then you are free to go to Somalia and live in a regulation free utopia
    - r_smart 8y ago
      Would you care to assign any other positions to me? I feel like you've lost sight of me simply taking objection to this histrionic idea of companies forcing people to work for them for 1c/hr. It's never going to happen, and you don't have to be a Somali pirate to see how absurd this argument is. I've put forth no other argument about anything, regulation or otherwise.
      - lovich 8y ago
        I don't find the idea histrionic. We are seeing a constant and repeated degradation of worker's rights in ways that are both limiting what workers are allowed to do outside of their employment with a company, and in limiting worker's abilities to seek redress for any damages done to them by their employers. We already see industries where every single company operating in that industry requires arbitration agreements which employees have no protection against. The courts have said its kosher, the legislature has no intention of blocking it at a federal level, and for many classes of workers there are no options without arbitration agreements. That is just removing the protection of the courts from a massive number of workers. Combine this with other controls on workers, like companies getting a say in whether or not you get unemployment, and workers are being forced more and more into a choice of do what the companies say or starve. I don't see how this doesn't end with virtual slavery like being forced to work for 1c/hr but you stand here and say its stupid and hyperbolic. I admit that I did assign you a position you never stated. I have mostly seen arguments against discussing issues like this come from die hard libertarians who think there should be no sort of government interference in agreements between employees and employers and I made an assumption about you without evidence, for which I apologize
    - r_smart 8y ago
      I can't reply to you below, so I'll do it here. Firstly, apology accepted. Easy mistake to make. Secondly, I just can't see us letting things go that far. We'll have to agree to disagree with that. I do agree that binding arbitration clauses are terrible, and I accidentally put myself in a position where I had to sign one at my last job. We had worked out terms, and a start date and I quit my old job before I saw the employment contract. I went through and made edits, and the CEO was open to negotiating on it. There was a problem with their IP ownership clause he happily fixed, and if I wanted to, he was willing to get his lawyer involved in the removal of the arbitration clause. I let it go though because I would have been jobless if he decided I wasn't worth it. The problem though is, how do you strike a balance between leaving people free to make economic decisions they deem in their interest vs being taken advantage of by predatory contract agreements? Arbitration and non-competes are bad, but I'm happy to agree to them...for a price.

What about the time that workers were literally gunned down for not allowing themselves to be taken advantage of. Once you look at historical examples, these crazy things people are saying end up being less crazy than what historically has happened. So, what happens when a worker signs such an agreement and it is upheld under arbitration?

mikeash 8y ago
Heck, it used to be pretty common to have workers with contracts that not only forbade them from working elsewhere, but forbade them from leaving their job at all. The hypothetical extreme of “sign a contract to sell yourself into slavery” is not actually very hypothetical nor extreme.

lovich 8y ago

These aren't made up. States are feeling compelled to add laws to limit non competes now, when they historically haven't, due to things like sandwich shops having non compete clauses for their minimum wage employees. Massachusetts recently enacted regulations on non competes in response to those kinds of abuses

r_smart 8y ago
Did those sandwich shops have non-competes that forbade the employee from working for any other company no matter the industry, or just sandwich shops? It's still stupid, but the hyperbole above is about non-competes forbidding getting any other job anywhere ever again.
- lovich 8y ago
  If I recall correctly it was food prep, which covers any retail shop, like Walmart, that also serves food. That happens to cover the vast majority of all minimum wage work. As companies are growing larger and larger, and entering more and more industries, those uncurtailed non competes _are_ going to effectively be a complete stop on working at other firms. It's not stupid. We are watching this happen. If you think companies should be free from any of this regulation or even discussion about their practices then you are free to go to Somalia and live in a regulation free utopia
  - r_smart 8y ago
    Would you care to assign any other positions to me? I feel like you've lost sight of me simply taking objection to this histrionic idea of companies forcing people to work for them for 1c/hr. It's never going to happen, and you don't have to be a Somali pirate to see how absurd this argument is. I've put forth no other argument about anything, regulation or otherwise.
    - lovich 8y ago
      I don't find the idea histrionic. We are seeing a constant and repeated degradation of worker's rights in ways that are both limiting what workers are allowed to do outside of their employment with a company, and in limiting worker's abilities to seek redress for any damages done to them by their employers. We already see industries where every single company operating in that industry requires arbitration agreements which employees have no protection against. The courts have said its kosher, the legislature has no intention of blocking it at a federal level, and for many classes of workers there are no options without arbitration agreements. That is just removing the protection of the courts from a massive number of workers. Combine this with other controls on workers, like companies getting a say in whether or not you get unemployment, and workers are being forced more and more into a choice of do what the companies say or starve. I don't see how this doesn't end with virtual slavery like being forced to work for 1c/hr but you stand here and say its stupid and hyperbolic. I admit that I did assign you a position you never stated. I have mostly seen arguments against discussing issues like this come from die hard libertarians who think there should be no sort of government interference in agreements between employees and employers and I made an assumption about you without evidence, for which I apologize
  - r_smart 8y ago
    I can't reply to you below, so I'll do it here. Firstly, apology accepted. Easy mistake to make. Secondly, I just can't see us letting things go that far. We'll have to agree to disagree with that. I do agree that binding arbitration clauses are terrible, and I accidentally put myself in a position where I had to sign one at my last job. We had worked out terms, and a start date and I quit my old job before I saw the employment contract. I went through and made edits, and the CEO was open to negotiating on it. There was a problem with their IP ownership clause he happily fixed, and if I wanted to, he was willing to get his lawyer involved in the removal of the arbitration clause. I let it go though because I would have been jobless if he decided I wasn't worth it. The problem though is, how do you strike a balance between leaving people free to make economic decisions they deem in their interest vs being taken advantage of by predatory contract agreements? Arbitration and non-competes are bad, but I'm happy to agree to them...for a price.