8 ms·

Low salaries are not a good thing for the startups! Here's an article from a French engineer that is currently on the front page of HN: https://web.archive.org

Low salaries are not a good thing for the startups! Here's an article from a French engineer that is currently on the front page of HN: https://web.archive.org/web/20180925150228/https://florentcrivello.com/index.php/2018/09/25/go-west-young-man/ https://web.archive.org/web/20180925150228/https://florentcr... tldr; he moved to SF because salaries are much, much higher than in France, even considering the social benefits that you get in France. Other threads on HN have French engineers saying that they love living in France while working remotely for American companies. I've lived in Paris, Berlin, NYC and California. I'll never understand how European founders can keep saying that 40k euro salaries for engineers is a benefit while they watch so many great engineers leave to American companies.

axtn 8y ago
They are a benefit... if you pay people above market! That allows you to attract top talent that otherwise would be locked in at Google etc. The whole point of low salaries, for smart companies, is to be the one increasing them! Obviously that makes it a temporary advantage, as salaries start to increase... But all great advantages are temporary. The people you are talking to, who like low salaries because they want to enjoy lower costs in perpetuity... that’s just mediocre thinking by mediocre companies.
- lazyjones 8y ago
  Good luck getting the top talent that has moved to the US, UK or Switzerland years ago.
  - achamayou 8y ago
    There’s top talent graduating all the time though, you don’t necessarily need to go abroad and drag people back.
    - axtn 8y ago
      Exactly. France has extremely strong engineering schools, and almost no software industry. You wouldn’t believe the talent being wasted in banking IT desks and consulting conpanies... Not only can a well-funded startup pay them better, the work is 10x more interesting. And unlike Silicon Valley engineers, French employees won’t ditch you after a year. Once they’re on board, they tend to stick around (sometimes even too long for their own good...)
      - craigsmansion 8y ago
        MIT used to be the dream, now it's Inria where all the magic seems to originate. (I blame the switch from scheme to Python)
      - lazyjones 8y ago
        > French employees won’t ditch you after a year. Once they’re on board, they tend to stick around (sometimes even too long for their own good...) You forgot to mention that you can‘t fire them at will either... It‘s such laws and excessive taxation that makes many european countries unattractive for startups.
        jeandejean 8y ago
        That is just not true, it's quite easy to fire somebody in France, you just have to pay correctly for settlement.
        lazyjones 8y ago
        How much is the correct amount for settlement?
        user5994461 8y ago
        An employee can be laid off if he agrees to it but that's not like firing because it needs an agreement. I am not sure if the OP is talking about that. It's possible to fire people without justification and the company will be brought to court. There is a new law from Macron that caps the damages the employee can get to pretty much nothing when he only has a few years of tenure or less. You could provision for a few months of salary.
  - jogjayr 8y ago
    There's always people that want to move back home to be closer to family or their culture but are put off by the lower salaries.
    - wakey86 8y ago
      I couldn't agree more!
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  Low salaries also mean it is hard for normal people(ie people not from rich or well connected families) to save up enough money to self-fund a startup.
relyio 8y ago
>I've lived in Paris, Berlin, NYC and California. I'll never understand how European founders can keep saying that 40k euro salaries for engineers is a benefit while they watch so many great engineers leave to American companies. This. I have tasted the fruit and I'm never going back. The social benefits feel largely like gimmicks compared to the standard of living + social recognition you get working as an engineer in the US or even Canada.
- mhjas 8y ago
  What do you mean by "standard of living" though? I know plenty of Europeans who have access to things even rich Americans barely have access to. Once you want to, or have, kids many benefits that are hard to come by becomes less gimmicky. The main problem in Europe, and in most countries, these days is the housing market. Your position in the housing market has really come to determine your position in society.
  - oh_sigh 8y ago
    What things are you specifically talking about that 'even rich Americans barely have access to'?
    - mhjas 8y ago
      For example it is pretty common in the Nordic countries to have a vacation home where you spend summers and holidays with friends and family. And between saved parental leave, standardized vacation periods and public holidays there is time available to do so. There are certainly people who do have that in the US, but once you or your family relocates it gets a lot more tricky. In general I just think it is a lot easier in, at least some, European countries to set yourself up for a good life. Day to day, year to year, to not endure a long commute or stressful work environment. Having time to spend with your kids while they are young, your parents before they get too old and your friends so you don't lose touch. Not having to worry about the future, managing your kids lives, the financial losses of getting sick or your career. Once you start wanting to do things that aren't universal or the default in any country, and especially with other people in your life, you can end up paying a large premium to do so.
jeandejean 8y ago
I do agree that low salary is an issue, but it's improving. On the other hand, it's very hard to compare everything, when you're young, single and healthy, it's a no brainer that you should take your chance in the US. But if you have a family, suddenly are diagnosed with a costly disease of whatever kind, I bet you wish to be in Europe. So articles that say "you should go west" just applies to their authors, everybody has their own set of parameters to evaluate, and the answer isn't so obvious. I personally have kids and a wife that earns a lot of money. I've done the maths, it's a no brainer for me financially to stay in Europe...
thatfrenchguy 8y ago
The Numeo cost of living is bullshit though, SF is not 46% more expensive than Paris, it's much more. That said, salaries are still much better in SV... Up until the point where you have kids.

axtn 8y ago

They are a benefit... if you pay people above market! That allows you to attract top talent that otherwise would be locked in at Google etc. The whole point of low salaries, for smart companies, is to be the one increasing them! Obviously that makes it a temporary advantage, as salaries start to increase... But all great advantages are temporary. The people you are talking to, who like low salaries because they want to enjoy lower costs in perpetuity... that’s just mediocre thinking by mediocre companies.

lazyjones 8y ago
Good luck getting the top talent that has moved to the US, UK or Switzerland years ago.
- achamayou 8y ago
  There’s top talent graduating all the time though, you don’t necessarily need to go abroad and drag people back.
  - axtn 8y ago
    Exactly. France has extremely strong engineering schools, and almost no software industry. You wouldn’t believe the talent being wasted in banking IT desks and consulting conpanies... Not only can a well-funded startup pay them better, the work is 10x more interesting. And unlike Silicon Valley engineers, French employees won’t ditch you after a year. Once they’re on board, they tend to stick around (sometimes even too long for their own good...)
    - craigsmansion 8y ago
      MIT used to be the dream, now it's Inria where all the magic seems to originate. (I blame the switch from scheme to Python)
    - lazyjones 8y ago
      > French employees won’t ditch you after a year. Once they’re on board, they tend to stick around (sometimes even too long for their own good...) You forgot to mention that you can‘t fire them at will either... It‘s such laws and excessive taxation that makes many european countries unattractive for startups.
      - jeandejean 8y ago
        That is just not true, it's quite easy to fire somebody in France, you just have to pay correctly for settlement.
        lazyjones 8y ago
        How much is the correct amount for settlement?
        user5994461 8y ago
        An employee can be laid off if he agrees to it but that's not like firing because it needs an agreement. I am not sure if the OP is talking about that. It's possible to fire people without justification and the company will be brought to court. There is a new law from Macron that caps the damages the employee can get to pretty much nothing when he only has a few years of tenure or less. You could provision for a few months of salary.
- jogjayr 8y ago
  There's always people that want to move back home to be closer to family or their culture but are put off by the lower salaries.
  - wakey86 8y ago
    I couldn't agree more!
oh_sigh 8y ago
Low salaries also mean it is hard for normal people(ie people not from rich or well connected families) to save up enough money to self-fund a startup.

relyio 8y ago

>I've lived in Paris, Berlin, NYC and California. I'll never understand how European founders can keep saying that 40k euro salaries for engineers is a benefit while they watch so many great engineers leave to American companies. This. I have tasted the fruit and I'm never going back. The social benefits feel largely like gimmicks compared to the standard of living + social recognition you get working as an engineer in the US or even Canada.

mhjas 8y ago
What do you mean by "standard of living" though? I know plenty of Europeans who have access to things even rich Americans barely have access to. Once you want to, or have, kids many benefits that are hard to come by becomes less gimmicky. The main problem in Europe, and in most countries, these days is the housing market. Your position in the housing market has really come to determine your position in society.
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  What things are you specifically talking about that 'even rich Americans barely have access to'?
  - mhjas 8y ago
    For example it is pretty common in the Nordic countries to have a vacation home where you spend summers and holidays with friends and family. And between saved parental leave, standardized vacation periods and public holidays there is time available to do so. There are certainly people who do have that in the US, but once you or your family relocates it gets a lot more tricky. In general I just think it is a lot easier in, at least some, European countries to set yourself up for a good life. Day to day, year to year, to not endure a long commute or stressful work environment. Having time to spend with your kids while they are young, your parents before they get too old and your friends so you don't lose touch. Not having to worry about the future, managing your kids lives, the financial losses of getting sick or your career. Once you start wanting to do things that aren't universal or the default in any country, and especially with other people in your life, you can end up paying a large premium to do so.

jeandejean 8y ago

I do agree that low salary is an issue, but it's improving. On the other hand, it's very hard to compare everything, when you're young, single and healthy, it's a no brainer that you should take your chance in the US. But if you have a family, suddenly are diagnosed with a costly disease of whatever kind, I bet you wish to be in Europe. So articles that say "you should go west" just applies to their authors, everybody has their own set of parameters to evaluate, and the answer isn't so obvious. I personally have kids and a wife that earns a lot of money. I've done the maths, it's a no brainer for me financially to stay in Europe...

thatfrenchguy 8y ago

The Numeo cost of living is bullshit though, SF is not 46% more expensive than Paris, it's much more. That said, salaries are still much better in SV... Up until the point where you have kids.