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That's a bit circular...I may choose to breed with someone, but i do that because I find them attractive (because DNA tells me what is attractive), because my (

That's a bit circular...I may choose to breed with someone, but i do that because I find them attractive (because DNA tells me what is attractive), because my (known in humans to be inaccurate) risk assessment says it is worth it, etc. Plus, of the countless decisions I make every day, almost none of them are conscious. I can retroactively justify them as if they had been, but studies show we are far less conscious thinkers than we think we are. Ultimately, until we resolve the mind-body problem, we cant say that our decisions are based on more than a chaotic soup of interacting proteins and electrical sparks that are only marginally distinct from our environment.

milesvp 8y ago
So, while yes, we have lots of fmri data that suggests our mind makes decisions for us, then convinces us that we made the decision conciously. I suspect it's a mistake to take this to the logical conclusion that we can make no conscious decisions. Even if consciousness is a complete illusion that our mind fabricated for us, we still seem to have some control over our reactions. I say this as someone who is teaching my children better reactions to what life throws at them, and similarly having to mediate my own responses to mistakes they make. Even if all this is happening at the margin, that seems to be enough for us to have some profound differences in how successful we are at navigating life.
- ergothus 8y ago
  > I suspect it's a mistake to take this to the logical conclusion that we can make no conscious decisions. And I don't! I consider it unproven, but a duality option definitely remains an option. Plus, there's always the default excuse that if I assume consciousness is reality when I can't in fact decide, well, then I can't be blamed for coming to that conclusion :) That said, I think we really need to pay attention to how many "conscious" decisions we don't bother to be conscious for. I have a personal theory that consciousness is a state that is generally invoked only when the mind doesn't have a preset behavior - consciousness is invoked to ponder "what if" and decide what to do. Once we have prescribed behavior, consciousness shuts down. Thus, we might be "conscious" for only a few hours or even less in an average day. If so, we CAN be self-aware more often, but it takes effort. Side Note: This theory is based in part on the idea that there's an advantage in minimizing conscious time - be that caloric requirements or an innate danger of being too aware. I've recently read some claims that hurt the caloric argument (brains are high caloric things, but that doesn't mean consciousness requires more calories) but the innate dangers of overthinking remain strong but vague and anecdotal. Finding ways to make and support this theory without lapsing into it being an automatic (and thus not trigging awareness) response gets more tricky each time :)
bluGill 8y ago
You cannot choose to breed with someone who is already dead. Even if you succeed in breeding with someone (alive), if their genes are not very good your children won't live to breed. Thus if intelligence is a factor at all in survival (and it seems like it should be) your ancestors may not have had a choice but to select for intelligent.
- ergothus 8y ago
  > Thus if intelligence is a factor at all in survival (and it seems like it should be) your ancestors may not have had a choice but to select for intelligent. And this explains the large collection of (in our understanding) not-terribly-intelligent creatures on the planet how? Not trying to be snarky, just pointing out that intelligence is just one of many paths, and it's very hard to have strong conclusion about how something so rare fares in evolution, and if the tend will maximize or if it pays off to be "just a little" intelligent, just like it pays to be "just a little" able to swim.
  - ratacat 8y ago
    There's also the possibility that our concept of intelligence is totally wrapped up in our very anthropomorphic worldview. And we're simply incapable of understanding forms of intelligence that aren't distinctly our own.
    - ergothus 8y ago
      Thus my "in our understanding" - I personally believe our view of intelligence, sapience, and self-awareness is pretty limited even from what we CAN relate to. It is easier to go through life we if assume the status quo of understanding.
  - bluGill 8y ago
    I didn't mean to imply intelligence was a large factor, it need not be. There are thousands of factors, some more important than others. Some are even in direct conflict (intelligence is in fact in direct conflict with not needing too much energy to survive hard times - even while potentially providing more energy for those hard times). What humans have found successful doesn't say anything about about what any other animal will/should find successful.
pharrington 8y ago
The photo-electric radiation emitting from my computer monitor is considerably more than marginally distinct from the chaotic soup of interacting proteins and electrical sparks in my brain. Just a few seconds ago, I, of which my brain is certainly a part of, made a decision based off of the computer monitor that is in my environment. Grappling with chaos and complex interacting and intertwining systems is very difficult. It helps to not be led too astray by the easier to access tools we have (such as verbal language), which help, but many of which are woefully inadequate towards a coherent understanding of these issues.
x220 8y ago
I think selection for intelligence was a feedback loop. I think you're interpreting my idea as circular, and I disagree. Here's what I think was part of what lead to the development of large brains (and general intelligence). Keep in mind that biology and psychology are not my fields. Intelligence was inherently advantageous for humans because they allowed us to operate better in different environments. That's where natural selection took effect. Human tribes were and are (like most populations of social species) characterized by hierarchies, particularly among males in the species. Females tended to choose (and still tend to choose, as far as we can tell) males higher up in social hierarchies when all else is equal (just like most social species, even favoring position in a hierarchy more highly than most other traits). If a tribe has many different possible kinds of hierarchies for males (e.g. they inhabit many different kinds of environments), then one trait that enables a male to do well across many hierarchies is general intelligence. When females select males as high up the hierarchy as possible (in general), they are in effect sexually selecting for intelligence. I think something similar likely happened with males selecting females with higher intelligence, but it was likely more subtle of a process than I can grasp, since males tend to mate far less selectively than females among humans (and most other animal species), which complicates it quite a bit for me. Also, just because a choice is unconscious does not mean it is illogical. Many unconscious human choices are quite logical and make a lot of sense, but are not well suited to our current environment.

milesvp 8y ago

So, while yes, we have lots of fmri data that suggests our mind makes decisions for us, then convinces us that we made the decision conciously. I suspect it's a mistake to take this to the logical conclusion that we can make no conscious decisions. Even if consciousness is a complete illusion that our mind fabricated for us, we still seem to have some control over our reactions. I say this as someone who is teaching my children better reactions to what life throws at them, and similarly having to mediate my own responses to mistakes they make. Even if all this is happening at the margin, that seems to be enough for us to have some profound differences in how successful we are at navigating life.

ergothus 8y ago
> I suspect it's a mistake to take this to the logical conclusion that we can make no conscious decisions. And I don't! I consider it unproven, but a duality option definitely remains an option. Plus, there's always the default excuse that if I assume consciousness is reality when I can't in fact decide, well, then I can't be blamed for coming to that conclusion :) That said, I think we really need to pay attention to how many "conscious" decisions we don't bother to be conscious for. I have a personal theory that consciousness is a state that is generally invoked only when the mind doesn't have a preset behavior - consciousness is invoked to ponder "what if" and decide what to do. Once we have prescribed behavior, consciousness shuts down. Thus, we might be "conscious" for only a few hours or even less in an average day. If so, we CAN be self-aware more often, but it takes effort. Side Note: This theory is based in part on the idea that there's an advantage in minimizing conscious time - be that caloric requirements or an innate danger of being too aware. I've recently read some claims that hurt the caloric argument (brains are high caloric things, but that doesn't mean consciousness requires more calories) but the innate dangers of overthinking remain strong but vague and anecdotal. Finding ways to make and support this theory without lapsing into it being an automatic (and thus not trigging awareness) response gets more tricky each time :)

bluGill 8y ago

You cannot choose to breed with someone who is already dead. Even if you succeed in breeding with someone (alive), if their genes are not very good your children won't live to breed. Thus if intelligence is a factor at all in survival (and it seems like it should be) your ancestors may not have had a choice but to select for intelligent.

ergothus 8y ago
> Thus if intelligence is a factor at all in survival (and it seems like it should be) your ancestors may not have had a choice but to select for intelligent. And this explains the large collection of (in our understanding) not-terribly-intelligent creatures on the planet how? Not trying to be snarky, just pointing out that intelligence is just one of many paths, and it's very hard to have strong conclusion about how something so rare fares in evolution, and if the tend will maximize or if it pays off to be "just a little" intelligent, just like it pays to be "just a little" able to swim.
- ratacat 8y ago
  There's also the possibility that our concept of intelligence is totally wrapped up in our very anthropomorphic worldview. And we're simply incapable of understanding forms of intelligence that aren't distinctly our own.
  - ergothus 8y ago
    Thus my "in our understanding" - I personally believe our view of intelligence, sapience, and self-awareness is pretty limited even from what we CAN relate to. It is easier to go through life we if assume the status quo of understanding.
- bluGill 8y ago
  I didn't mean to imply intelligence was a large factor, it need not be. There are thousands of factors, some more important than others. Some are even in direct conflict (intelligence is in fact in direct conflict with not needing too much energy to survive hard times - even while potentially providing more energy for those hard times). What humans have found successful doesn't say anything about about what any other animal will/should find successful.

pharrington 8y ago

The photo-electric radiation emitting from my computer monitor is considerably more than marginally distinct from the chaotic soup of interacting proteins and electrical sparks in my brain. Just a few seconds ago, I, of which my brain is certainly a part of, made a decision based off of the computer monitor that is in my environment. Grappling with chaos and complex interacting and intertwining systems is very difficult. It helps to not be led too astray by the easier to access tools we have (such as verbal language), which help, but many of which are woefully inadequate towards a coherent understanding of these issues.

x220 8y ago

I think selection for intelligence was a feedback loop. I think you're interpreting my idea as circular, and I disagree. Here's what I think was part of what lead to the development of large brains (and general intelligence). Keep in mind that biology and psychology are not my fields. Intelligence was inherently advantageous for humans because they allowed us to operate better in different environments. That's where natural selection took effect. Human tribes were and are (like most populations of social species) characterized by hierarchies, particularly among males in the species. Females tended to choose (and still tend to choose, as far as we can tell) males higher up in social hierarchies when all else is equal (just like most social species, even favoring position in a hierarchy more highly than most other traits). If a tribe has many different possible kinds of hierarchies for males (e.g. they inhabit many different kinds of environments), then one trait that enables a male to do well across many hierarchies is general intelligence. When females select males as high up the hierarchy as possible (in general), they are in effect sexually selecting for intelligence. I think something similar likely happened with males selecting females with higher intelligence, but it was likely more subtle of a process than I can grasp, since males tend to mate far less selectively than females among humans (and most other animal species), which complicates it quite a bit for me. Also, just because a choice is unconscious does not mean it is illogical. Many unconscious human choices are quite logical and make a lot of sense, but are not well suited to our current environment.