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We've heard bits of this before [1] but maybe discovery is confirming some of qualcomm's theories. > Qualcomm claims it has reason to believe Apple flouted its

We've heard bits of this before [1] but maybe discovery is confirming some of qualcomm's theories. > Qualcomm claims it has reason to believe Apple flouted its rules, and cites an incident in which an Apple engineer CC'ed an Intel engineer in a message containing confidential material. The chipmaker also says Apple engineers working with competitive vendors merely obscured references to Qualcomm in messages rather than restricting the flow of protected data. [1] https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/11/02/qualcomm_sues_apple/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/11/02/qualcomm_sues_apple...

baxtr 8y ago
That’s hardly “stealing”, though. Sounds more like “really dumb mistake”.
- wyldfire 8y ago
  Wild speculation but kinda hilarious if Intel asked Apple, "Hey how does design element X work in the existing product?" and Apple said, "Gee, I dunno, let's ask the existing vendor. Hey Qualcomm, how does this part work again?"
  - duxup 8y ago
    That's not too unusual. I worked at a company where we acquired by one of our "partner's" competitors. An engineer sent out an email including some new management from the acquired company, me, and our partner complaining that our partner was no longer responding in a timely manner ;)
  - bluGill 8y ago
    Unlikely. Intel and Apple both know better than to be that obvious.
    - samfisher83 8y ago
      You seem to imply Intel and Apple is a person. There are thousands of engineers who work on these products. Are every one of them supposed to be perfect. If legal had to read every engineers email we would get nothing done. I mean there was probably some commands the cpu sent the baseband and I am guessing Apple wanted it to be the same with the intel chip.
      - quickben 8y ago
        Yes. Every one of them signed bunch of documents.
        baxtr 8y ago
        I am not sure if that’s how things work out in the end. Usually, all big companies have programs where you need to comply once a year or so (eg by watching training videos and answering some questions on how to write emails). Thus, they can transfer to an extent to the individual
- jsight 8y ago
  Yeah, and this explanation actually makes the most sense to me. I've seen people do enough similar things to see how someone would do this without thinking about it.
- vvanders 8y ago
  I've been the point engineer in these types of interactions(over on the GPU space, but still plenty of IP to worry about there). You're very, very careful to make sure this doesn't happen, up to and including having two discrete teams that work with different vendors to make sure it doesn't happen(sometimes mandated by contracts). In my last gig where I did this our group was the one part of the company that most vendors came to precisely because we didn't disclose techniques or approaches. Someone just casually mentioning "Vendor X" does Texture Compression with "Y" in discussions is enough to get them to never talk to your engineers again. (I've seen very senior engineers do this in order to try and move the needle with a vendor only to completely sabotage the whole relationship without even realizing it.)
  - drakonka 8y ago
    Not quite the same level but I remember before gen 4 game consoles were announced, for a while the NDA hoops we had to jump through and the care we had to take when discussing them internally was intense. For a long time we just called them "gen4a" and "gen4b" (a legacy that still lives in our code base to this day), and you weren't allowed to verbalise which one was which. This was followed by more code words, so you then had to remember which code name matched up with gen4a and which one was gen4b. SDK and firmware drops were strictly locked down of course, and we had to hide the dev kits when any kind of video crew or photography was taking place around our work areas even though the kits were pretty much unrecognisable and even if it was for an internal purpose (but that's to be expected, anyway). Also you could not stack one particular kit on top of the other one because it was known to overheat faster than a pug in summer.
    - vvanders 8y ago
      Oh yeah, I was in gamedev before this and NDA process back then was quite involved. These days with the ability to run on production hardware that's a lot less restricted. I'd say that SoC vendors are a bit more strict about NDAs vs GameDev where it was pretty wide knowledge who worked on what. Once you were in the industry there were very few secrets given how small it is.
  - trentlott 8y ago

baxtr 8y ago

That’s hardly “stealing”, though. Sounds more like “really dumb mistake”.

wyldfire 8y ago
Wild speculation but kinda hilarious if Intel asked Apple, "Hey how does design element X work in the existing product?" and Apple said, "Gee, I dunno, let's ask the existing vendor. Hey Qualcomm, how does this part work again?"
- duxup 8y ago
  That's not too unusual. I worked at a company where we acquired by one of our "partner's" competitors. An engineer sent out an email including some new management from the acquired company, me, and our partner complaining that our partner was no longer responding in a timely manner ;)
- bluGill 8y ago
  Unlikely. Intel and Apple both know better than to be that obvious.
  - samfisher83 8y ago
    You seem to imply Intel and Apple is a person. There are thousands of engineers who work on these products. Are every one of them supposed to be perfect. If legal had to read every engineers email we would get nothing done. I mean there was probably some commands the cpu sent the baseband and I am guessing Apple wanted it to be the same with the intel chip.
    - quickben 8y ago
      Yes. Every one of them signed bunch of documents.
      - baxtr 8y ago
        I am not sure if that’s how things work out in the end. Usually, all big companies have programs where you need to comply once a year or so (eg by watching training videos and answering some questions on how to write emails). Thus, they can transfer to an extent to the individual
jsight 8y ago
Yeah, and this explanation actually makes the most sense to me. I've seen people do enough similar things to see how someone would do this without thinking about it.
vvanders 8y ago
I've been the point engineer in these types of interactions(over on the GPU space, but still plenty of IP to worry about there). You're very, very careful to make sure this doesn't happen, up to and including having two discrete teams that work with different vendors to make sure it doesn't happen(sometimes mandated by contracts). In my last gig where I did this our group was the one part of the company that most vendors came to precisely because we didn't disclose techniques or approaches. Someone just casually mentioning "Vendor X" does Texture Compression with "Y" in discussions is enough to get them to never talk to your engineers again. (I've seen very senior engineers do this in order to try and move the needle with a vendor only to completely sabotage the whole relationship without even realizing it.)
- drakonka 8y ago
  Not quite the same level but I remember before gen 4 game consoles were announced, for a while the NDA hoops we had to jump through and the care we had to take when discussing them internally was intense. For a long time we just called them "gen4a" and "gen4b" (a legacy that still lives in our code base to this day), and you weren't allowed to verbalise which one was which. This was followed by more code words, so you then had to remember which code name matched up with gen4a and which one was gen4b. SDK and firmware drops were strictly locked down of course, and we had to hide the dev kits when any kind of video crew or photography was taking place around our work areas even though the kits were pretty much unrecognisable and even if it was for an internal purpose (but that's to be expected, anyway). Also you could not stack one particular kit on top of the other one because it was known to overheat faster than a pug in summer.
  - vvanders 8y ago
    Oh yeah, I was in gamedev before this and NDA process back then was quite involved. These days with the ability to run on production hardware that's a lot less restricted. I'd say that SoC vendors are a bit more strict about NDAs vs GameDev where it was pretty wide knowledge who worked on what. Once you were in the industry there were very few secrets given how small it is.
- trentlott 8y ago