7 ms·

Does SSB still make it impossible to share a single identity across multiple devices? (I.e. I'd like to log into my identity from my laptop but see that same id

Does SSB still make it impossible to share a single identity across multiple devices? (I.e. I'd like to log into my identity from my laptop but see that same identity's feed on my phone.) I want to participate, but periodically I check https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/faq/applications/multiple-devices.html https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/faq/applications/multiple-devices... and it hasn't changed, and for me, having a single device to which the entirety of my identity is tied is a non-starter. Even so, the tech seems interesting, and I hope that limitation goes away one day.

sktrdie 8y ago
Wow that seems like a pretty weird limitation. Wouldn't you be able to use the same password on a different device?
- lucideer 8y ago
  SSB uses a simple immutable ledger per identity; merging isn't something that's supported architecturally. Their plan is to support this at a client level: you create multiple identities with metadata indicating that all are the same person on different devices, which clients can then use to group them appropriately in whatever way makes sense. UX wise, it may make sense for some clients to obscure this architecture from new users somewhat and treat them visually as the same identity, but that's down the line (and I'm sure some purist clients will never want to do this).
  - staltz 8y ago
    And progress has been to get there with the recent v3 of [ssb-friends](https://github.com/ssbc/ssb-friends/ https://github.com/ssbc/ssb-friends/)
    - marknadal 8y ago
      I've been telling Dominic and Juan (even Feross, Mathias, etc.) that there is a simple fix for this with CRDTs (GUN's or not) since 2014 - Dominic (SSB) has been the most cutting edge, he adopted some CRDTs I think for log relay, why not also for identity? Skip to 11:45 into the video, the algorithm/cryptography for it isn't that hard either: https://www.decentralizedweb.net/videos/talk-better-algorithms-for-a-decentralized-webthe-gun-stack/ https://www.decentralizedweb.net/videos/talk-better-algorith... you could do it in SSB without needing gun!
      - xj9 8y ago
        the only way to share identity in a crypto-cap system is to share privkeys, which is a big no-no. much, much safer to have multiple privkeys that are linked with signatures. you probably shouldn't think of ssb id keys as having a 1:1 relationship with a person. they are more like device keys, the person ID is a higher level construct that is expressed by publishing links that assert that a set of keys belong to the same agent.
        ChristianBundy 8y ago
        This is similar to how it works with applications like Signal: each device has its own keypair and a person can have multiple devices. The only difference is that currently we don't have a universal way to do this, although it is in the pipeline.
        marknadal 8y ago
        You can think of keys as being a device key. But now you just kick the can back. You still have to have an account that manages the device keys, and you certainly don't want that locked down to a device - unless that device is the user's brain. So either way, you're still gonna have to use a system to manage it that looks 110% like the MIT Open Source security/cryptography code anybody can rip from us.
        notriddle 8y ago
        > But now you just kick the can back. You still have to have an account that manages the device keys, and you certainly don't want that locked down to a device They need to mutually confirm it. If keyA says sameAs keyB, and keyB says sameAs keyA, then they should be considered merged.
        xj9 8y ago
        there is no account only capabilities accept this, find peace
  - ChristianBundy 8y ago
    Exactly this. You can use the same identity on multiple devices, but if you post on both devices at the same time you're going to fork your feed.
- jeswin 8y ago
  SSB is basically a database log that syncs with your peers. Your log is immutable and message order is preserved - every message+previous_hash is signed - a hashchain that enforces order. Your peers can verify that the log has not been tampered with (both order and contents). This doesn't work with multiple devices, since they'll be two different logs. However, there is ongoing work to support multiple identities. One identity could broadcast that another identity is a "sameAs" - causing friendly peers to sync with the other identity as well. Personally, I haven't found this to be a problem. I find separate identities less distracting. (My favorite reason to use SSB is that continuous syncing is not an expectation.)
  - tomcam 8y ago
    > Personally, I haven't found this to be a problem. I find separate identities less distracting. (My favorite reason to use SSB is that continuous syncing is not an expectation.) A luxury not shared by marginalized persons, such as closeted gay or trans folks, political dissidents in repressive countries, or conservatives in Silicon Valley
    - marchenko 8y ago
      Your comment makes me think I'm misunderstanding identity management on SSB: don't marginalized folk usually maintain multiple "firewalled" social media identities? Is this not the default state of the Manyverse, with users hacking identity correlation by claiming "I, X, am also Y (proof)"? The worst case scenario here in terms of false claims and doxxing does not seem different than the mainstream social media services - am I mistaken?
lucideer 8y ago
There's been a good bit of discussion since but unfortunately a lot of it has disappeared from the web and has only been viewable from within the Scuttleverse ever since this change was introduced: https://github.com/ssbc/patchbay/commit/b5b3732069d413e925798f851087d42c551aaf57 https://github.com/ssbc/patchbay/commit/b5b3732069d413e92579...
- ChristianBundy 8y ago
  That's just the Patchbay code for opting into the viewer, here's the change made to the viewer: http://eight45.net:7718/%MeCTQrz9uszf9EZoTnKCeFeIedhnKWuB3JHW2l1g9NA=.sha256/commit/7123fbcab15c43bbb962d1312a465fddf164493c http://eight45.net:7718/%MeCTQrz9uszf9EZoTnKCeFeIedhnKWuB3JH...
  - lucideer 8y ago
    Oh wow, I wasn't aware of that change. I actually thought it was opt-out (hence referencing a client). That will quickly render the web viewer useless. I wonder where and how that decision was made. There was a previous discussion about this a few months back that I saw but the consensus then was not to go ahead with it. Obviously the way overridden along the way.
    - gregknicholson 8y ago
      The people who run the web viewers decided that they only wanted to show content from people who had actively opted in. But no-one's in charge. Someone else could make a web viewer that shows all public posts without opt-in. (Public posts on SSB are signed cryptographically but not encrypted.)
      - lucideer 8y ago
        True, but since ssb-viewer is the reference viewer maintained by Secure Scuttlebutt Consortium, my main question here is: what's the point of having a web viewer at all if 99% of users use default settings and don't explicitly opt-in? The other question is: is this a good precedent to set for the community. I'm imagining a lot of less tech-literate SSB users could interpret this opt-in feature as a guarantee of the privacy of their SSB posts, which it certainly isn't.
omnimus 8y ago
Another limitation is the need to keep the whole database on the phone (mine is few gigs). Solution ive seen many of the serious users use is raspberry pie running patchfoo at home and connecting to your rpi. Added hustle and you are basicaly centralising it for yourself.
- crypt0x 8y ago
  The patchfoo tunnel is really just a stopgap for me until a native soltion is available. it’s also a good option for no having the secret on the device, though. re size: you really don’t need _everything_ locally all the time. You can delete unused blobs easily, which take up most of the space. It’s all very implementation specific as well.
- rotexo 8y ago
  Interested in this—are there any tutorials on the subject you can point me to? Seems like it would be a great use for a pi, and I have one collecting dust at home. (Edit: spelling)
  - omnimus 8y ago
    Well i think you can follow patchfoo instalation from github. I think crypt0x (user in comment bellow) wrote it. If you will struggle just search/ask on scuttlebutt. It is actually very nice small community.
- aassddffasdf 8y ago
  Hey, somebody should build a beowulf cluster of Raspberry PIs running patchfoo and offer some sort of cloud/SaaS for everyone else.
mundo 8y ago
Would this be solvable by integrating support for Keybase or something similar? Come to think of it, someone else complained about the amount of local storage this uses, and Keybase includes some gigs of free cloud storage as well...
- acobster 8y ago
  In theory, yes. I asked this exact question on the scuttleverse a while back and the answer was basically "that might work." This was back when I was still using my old iMac, which is still the only device my scuttler identity exists on. Heh.
  - crypt0x 8y ago
    is it gone? Otherwise you just have to recover the .ssb/secret from your $HOME.
    - acobster 8y ago
      It's not gone. I'll transfer my ~/.ssb stuff over one of these days.

sktrdie 8y ago

Wow that seems like a pretty weird limitation. Wouldn't you be able to use the same password on a different device?

lucideer 8y ago
SSB uses a simple immutable ledger per identity; merging isn't something that's supported architecturally. Their plan is to support this at a client level: you create multiple identities with metadata indicating that all are the same person on different devices, which clients can then use to group them appropriately in whatever way makes sense. UX wise, it may make sense for some clients to obscure this architecture from new users somewhat and treat them visually as the same identity, but that's down the line (and I'm sure some purist clients will never want to do this).
- staltz 8y ago
  And progress has been to get there with the recent v3 of [ssb-friends](https://github.com/ssbc/ssb-friends/ https://github.com/ssbc/ssb-friends/)
  - marknadal 8y ago
    I've been telling Dominic and Juan (even Feross, Mathias, etc.) that there is a simple fix for this with CRDTs (GUN's or not) since 2014 - Dominic (SSB) has been the most cutting edge, he adopted some CRDTs I think for log relay, why not also for identity? Skip to 11:45 into the video, the algorithm/cryptography for it isn't that hard either: https://www.decentralizedweb.net/videos/talk-better-algorithms-for-a-decentralized-webthe-gun-stack/ https://www.decentralizedweb.net/videos/talk-better-algorith... you could do it in SSB without needing gun!
    - xj9 8y ago
      the only way to share identity in a crypto-cap system is to share privkeys, which is a big no-no. much, much safer to have multiple privkeys that are linked with signatures. you probably shouldn't think of ssb id keys as having a 1:1 relationship with a person. they are more like device keys, the person ID is a higher level construct that is expressed by publishing links that assert that a set of keys belong to the same agent.
      - ChristianBundy 8y ago
        This is similar to how it works with applications like Signal: each device has its own keypair and a person can have multiple devices. The only difference is that currently we don't have a universal way to do this, although it is in the pipeline.
        marknadal 8y ago
        You can think of keys as being a device key. But now you just kick the can back. You still have to have an account that manages the device keys, and you certainly don't want that locked down to a device - unless that device is the user's brain. So either way, you're still gonna have to use a system to manage it that looks 110% like the MIT Open Source security/cryptography code anybody can rip from us.
        notriddle 8y ago
        > But now you just kick the can back. You still have to have an account that manages the device keys, and you certainly don't want that locked down to a device They need to mutually confirm it. If keyA says sameAs keyB, and keyB says sameAs keyA, then they should be considered merged.
        xj9 8y ago
        there is no account only capabilities accept this, find peace
- ChristianBundy 8y ago
  Exactly this. You can use the same identity on multiple devices, but if you post on both devices at the same time you're going to fork your feed.
jeswin 8y ago
SSB is basically a database log that syncs with your peers. Your log is immutable and message order is preserved - every message+previous_hash is signed - a hashchain that enforces order. Your peers can verify that the log has not been tampered with (both order and contents). This doesn't work with multiple devices, since they'll be two different logs. However, there is ongoing work to support multiple identities. One identity could broadcast that another identity is a "sameAs" - causing friendly peers to sync with the other identity as well. Personally, I haven't found this to be a problem. I find separate identities less distracting. (My favorite reason to use SSB is that continuous syncing is not an expectation.)
- tomcam 8y ago
  > Personally, I haven't found this to be a problem. I find separate identities less distracting. (My favorite reason to use SSB is that continuous syncing is not an expectation.) A luxury not shared by marginalized persons, such as closeted gay or trans folks, political dissidents in repressive countries, or conservatives in Silicon Valley
  - marchenko 8y ago
    Your comment makes me think I'm misunderstanding identity management on SSB: don't marginalized folk usually maintain multiple "firewalled" social media identities? Is this not the default state of the Manyverse, with users hacking identity correlation by claiming "I, X, am also Y (proof)"? The worst case scenario here in terms of false claims and doxxing does not seem different than the mainstream social media services - am I mistaken?

lucideer 8y ago

There's been a good bit of discussion since but unfortunately a lot of it has disappeared from the web and has only been viewable from within the Scuttleverse ever since this change was introduced: https://github.com/ssbc/patchbay/commit/b5b3732069d413e925798f851087d42c551aaf57 https://github.com/ssbc/patchbay/commit/b5b3732069d413e92579...

ChristianBundy 8y ago
That's just the Patchbay code for opting into the viewer, here's the change made to the viewer: http://eight45.net:7718/%MeCTQrz9uszf9EZoTnKCeFeIedhnKWuB3JHW2l1g9NA=.sha256/commit/7123fbcab15c43bbb962d1312a465fddf164493c http://eight45.net:7718/%MeCTQrz9uszf9EZoTnKCeFeIedhnKWuB3JH...
- lucideer 8y ago
  Oh wow, I wasn't aware of that change. I actually thought it was opt-out (hence referencing a client). That will quickly render the web viewer useless. I wonder where and how that decision was made. There was a previous discussion about this a few months back that I saw but the consensus then was not to go ahead with it. Obviously the way overridden along the way.
  - gregknicholson 8y ago
    The people who run the web viewers decided that they only wanted to show content from people who had actively opted in. But no-one's in charge. Someone else could make a web viewer that shows all public posts without opt-in. (Public posts on SSB are signed cryptographically but not encrypted.)
    - lucideer 8y ago
      True, but since ssb-viewer is the reference viewer maintained by Secure Scuttlebutt Consortium, my main question here is: what's the point of having a web viewer at all if 99% of users use default settings and don't explicitly opt-in? The other question is: is this a good precedent to set for the community. I'm imagining a lot of less tech-literate SSB users could interpret this opt-in feature as a guarantee of the privacy of their SSB posts, which it certainly isn't.

omnimus 8y ago

Another limitation is the need to keep the whole database on the phone (mine is few gigs). Solution ive seen many of the serious users use is raspberry pie running patchfoo at home and connecting to your rpi. Added hustle and you are basicaly centralising it for yourself.

crypt0x 8y ago
The patchfoo tunnel is really just a stopgap for me until a native soltion is available. it’s also a good option for no having the secret on the device, though. re size: you really don’t need _everything_ locally all the time. You can delete unused blobs easily, which take up most of the space. It’s all very implementation specific as well.
rotexo 8y ago
Interested in this—are there any tutorials on the subject you can point me to? Seems like it would be a great use for a pi, and I have one collecting dust at home. (Edit: spelling)
- omnimus 8y ago
  Well i think you can follow patchfoo instalation from github. I think crypt0x (user in comment bellow) wrote it. If you will struggle just search/ask on scuttlebutt. It is actually very nice small community.
aassddffasdf 8y ago
Hey, somebody should build a beowulf cluster of Raspberry PIs running patchfoo and offer some sort of cloud/SaaS for everyone else.

mundo 8y ago

Would this be solvable by integrating support for Keybase or something similar? Come to think of it, someone else complained about the amount of local storage this uses, and Keybase includes some gigs of free cloud storage as well...

acobster 8y ago
In theory, yes. I asked this exact question on the scuttleverse a while back and the answer was basically "that might work." This was back when I was still using my old iMac, which is still the only device my scuttler identity exists on. Heh.
- crypt0x 8y ago
  is it gone? Otherwise you just have to recover the .ssb/secret from your $HOME.
  - acobster 8y ago
    It's not gone. I'll transfer my ~/.ssb stuff over one of these days.