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It's also revealing how the unique ability of humans to overcome their fundamental biological nature can be quite impressive and inspiring. Humans have many nat

It's also revealing how the unique ability of humans to overcome their fundamental biological nature can be quite impressive and inspiring. Humans have many natural tendencies that are not socially accepted, and better behavior can be learned and tendencies suppressed. Addicts and alcoholics can turn their lives around, even though they remain addicts for life.

danharaj 8y ago
> It's also revealing how the unique ability of humans to overcome their fundamental biological nature can be quite impressive and inspiring. That ability is itself part of the fundamental biological nature of humans, or whatever. The way you phrased it suggests a Cartesian dualistic interpretation.
- hellofunk 8y ago
  I have heard it frequently mentioned by interesting scientists (most recently, by Neil DeGrasse Tyson) that this ability to live against natural biological tendencies is unique for humans among the rest of the animal kingdom. So while it may be fundamental to humans, it is not apparently fundamental to the general biology of the world, and humans appear to be an interesting exception.
  - lovich 8y ago
    Dogs do it, albeit with human help. Considering that humans that grew up alone, ie. feral, seem to have no self control either I would think that dogs get to count too
    - hellofunk 8y ago
      Can you give an example of dog behavior that does this? I'm curious.
      - dfee 8y ago
        Here’s that behavior on display: https://www.reddit.com/r/rarepuppers/comments/9ime34/heckin_gud_girle_resists_temptashun/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rarepuppers/comments/9ime34/heckin_...
        lovich 8y ago
        Not sure why you are being downvoted. This link is one of the recent examples I was thinking of. The dog has been taught to not eat the food even when a human isn't around protecting the food. That requires ignoring one part of its biology for other benefits.
  - toasterlovin 8y ago
    Color me skeptical of the idea that humans can really go against the grain of their evolved instincts. What seems much more likely is: 1) A large subset of people possess instincts that were successful for reproduction in the ancestral environment, but are no longer so. See also plummeting birth rates despite being at the historical peak in terms of access to resources for the average person (in the developed world, at least). 2) Some people's evolved instincts are to play a long game based on building reputation and then leveraging that reputation over the long term, rather than pursuing immediate wants and desires. Such an instinct will produce a lot of behavior that seems out of line with a naive interpretation of how we "should" be evolved to behave.
coldtea 8y ago
>Addicts and alcoholics can turn their lives around, even though they remain addicts for life. The "addicts for life" is an American puritan view (by AA and other such groups) -- not some scientific fact. Certainly not the view everywhere in the world. You can have an alcoholic of 5-10 years that recovered and can still enjoy the occasional drink just fine without getting back to regular drinking.
- manmal 8y ago
  Most institutions don’t want to let their clients go—why should AA be any different.
  - dustingetz 8y ago
    i think you have it backwards- institutions that don’t self sustain, don’t survive.
    - wnoise 8y ago
      That's an explanation for the observed phenomenon, not him getting it backwards.
    - manmal 8y ago
      IDK. There’s no shortage of alcoholics, so they could deal with people exiting after 2y or so, without dissolving. Instead, they are like boy/girlscouts for grownups without the age limit.
- mercer 8y ago
  The more specific statements about addicts become, the more cautious I tend to be. That said, I do at least agree that your quote is rather particular to AA, and not shared by other programs, like SMART. The reason I hesitate to dismiss the AA view is that it strikes me as quite possible that, for a subset of addicts, any kind of hope of moderation can be disastrous. The way I see it, a less dichotomous perspective such as that of SMART is a better starting point than the 'once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic' approach of AA. And if SMART doesn't work, AA might very well be the only solution left.
neom 8y ago
Just read about ibogaine if you'd like to learn about how possible and easy "curing" addiction can be. :)

danharaj 8y ago

> It's also revealing how the unique ability of humans to overcome their fundamental biological nature can be quite impressive and inspiring. That ability is itself part of the fundamental biological nature of humans, or whatever. The way you phrased it suggests a Cartesian dualistic interpretation.

hellofunk 8y ago
I have heard it frequently mentioned by interesting scientists (most recently, by Neil DeGrasse Tyson) that this ability to live against natural biological tendencies is unique for humans among the rest of the animal kingdom. So while it may be fundamental to humans, it is not apparently fundamental to the general biology of the world, and humans appear to be an interesting exception.
- lovich 8y ago
  Dogs do it, albeit with human help. Considering that humans that grew up alone, ie. feral, seem to have no self control either I would think that dogs get to count too
  - hellofunk 8y ago
    Can you give an example of dog behavior that does this? I'm curious.
    - dfee 8y ago
      Here’s that behavior on display: https://www.reddit.com/r/rarepuppers/comments/9ime34/heckin_gud_girle_resists_temptashun/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rarepuppers/comments/9ime34/heckin_...
      - lovich 8y ago
        Not sure why you are being downvoted. This link is one of the recent examples I was thinking of. The dog has been taught to not eat the food even when a human isn't around protecting the food. That requires ignoring one part of its biology for other benefits.
- toasterlovin 8y ago
  Color me skeptical of the idea that humans can really go against the grain of their evolved instincts. What seems much more likely is: 1) A large subset of people possess instincts that were successful for reproduction in the ancestral environment, but are no longer so. See also plummeting birth rates despite being at the historical peak in terms of access to resources for the average person (in the developed world, at least). 2) Some people's evolved instincts are to play a long game based on building reputation and then leveraging that reputation over the long term, rather than pursuing immediate wants and desires. Such an instinct will produce a lot of behavior that seems out of line with a naive interpretation of how we "should" be evolved to behave.

coldtea 8y ago

>Addicts and alcoholics can turn their lives around, even though they remain addicts for life. The "addicts for life" is an American puritan view (by AA and other such groups) -- not some scientific fact. Certainly not the view everywhere in the world. You can have an alcoholic of 5-10 years that recovered and can still enjoy the occasional drink just fine without getting back to regular drinking.

manmal 8y ago
Most institutions don’t want to let their clients go—why should AA be any different.
- dustingetz 8y ago
  i think you have it backwards- institutions that don’t self sustain, don’t survive.
  - wnoise 8y ago
    That's an explanation for the observed phenomenon, not him getting it backwards.
  - manmal 8y ago
    IDK. There’s no shortage of alcoholics, so they could deal with people exiting after 2y or so, without dissolving. Instead, they are like boy/girlscouts for grownups without the age limit.
mercer 8y ago
The more specific statements about addicts become, the more cautious I tend to be. That said, I do at least agree that your quote is rather particular to AA, and not shared by other programs, like SMART. The reason I hesitate to dismiss the AA view is that it strikes me as quite possible that, for a subset of addicts, any kind of hope of moderation can be disastrous. The way I see it, a less dichotomous perspective such as that of SMART is a better starting point than the 'once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic' approach of AA. And if SMART doesn't work, AA might very well be the only solution left.

neom 8y ago

Just read about ibogaine if you'd like to learn about how possible and easy "curing" addiction can be. :)