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In an ideal world, yes. But people have mortgages, families and other commitments. Some have social anxiety and find job hunting an impossibly scary prospect. O

In an ideal world, yes. But people have mortgages, families and other commitments. Some have social anxiety and find job hunting an impossibly scary prospect. Others might suffer from depression. It's all good and well placing generalised ethics on individuals to do the right thing but in those kind of ideal world scenarios you also wouldn't have accountants finding tax loopholes, lawyers perpetuating patent abuse, nor company directors asking their staff to do morally objectionable things to begin with.

wu-ikkyu 8y ago
>people have mortgages, families and other commitments. Some have social anxiety and find job hunting an impossibly scary prospect. Others might suffer from depression. So what? Standing up for what you believe in is never easy, and almost always involves challenges like those. Imagine if Dr. King gave up because he was anxious and depressed with death threats coming in on a regular basis. Failing to take a moral/ethical stand because you're worried you might lose money or have to withstand some social anxiety blatantly shows that you don't really believe in those morals/ethics.
- amyjess 8y ago
  You don't have a right to subject your children to homelessness just because you felt like taking a stance based on feelings.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    Does one have a right to give a crappy life example to one's children?
- thecatspaw 8y ago
  So, assuming you're tight on money, the job market is looking crap, but you got lucky and got a well paying job. Chances of getting another job are slim. You have a few responsibilities, a wife, say 2 kids, maybe even someone who needs medical bills paid. Do you just say "fuck it", and quit, ignoring all your responsibilities? Over cookies? Of course, when its not about cookies, but about something more drastic, say something ludicrous like giving google nuclear launch codes, then the whole thing looks different. Some things are worth the fight, some are not.
  - gurkendoktor 8y ago
    > Some things are worth the fight, some are not. That argument goes both ways. If the Chrome team were unionized/organized in some form, and said "hell no" to the cookie change, then I doubt Google's management would shrug and replace the whole team with fresh H1B workers just to get this small change in. I also find it fascinating that so many people bring up children as a reason to give up your ideals. My dad gave up a well-paying job for a more fulfilling one, and it would never occur to me to blame him for it; if anything it's inspiring. This was in Europe, with a reasonable safety net, but I don't think that Xooglers would hit rock bottom anyway.
  - mhjas 8y ago
    This isn't just about cookies though. When Google designed HTTP/2 they kept cookies in favor of a separate authentication mechanism. Arguably because otherwise people would end up removing cookies altogether making themselves harder to track and with Google losing ad money in the process. Now Google have seemingly decided they want to have their cake and eat it too, just only for themselves. This isn't one incident but Google manifesting thier direction for themselves and the Internet. (Just recently they also disabled sign out from their YouTube app for instance). If you disagree with this direction that is certainly a good reason too quit sooner rather than later. Pretty much everyone I have ever talked to that ended up changing e.g. jobs because of a disagreement wish they did so earlier. It is very easy to sit in the same position and hope that things will get better and hard to see what else is out there even if it is very clear in hindsight.
  - wu-ikkyu 8y ago
    >Do you just say "fuck it", and quit, ignoring all your responsibilities? Over cookies? If you follow the news about Google at all, you'd know its obviously not just about cookies. >Of course, when its not about cookies, but about something more drastic It's about the the greatest surveillance apparatus in history encroaching towards total informational awareness.
    - thecatspaw 8y ago
      for the individual developer getting asked to implement this, it is over cookies. The decision is "Do I implement this, or do I tell my kids I dont know how to feed them"
- Spivak 8y ago
  > Imagine if Dr. King gave up because he was anxious and depressed with death threats coming in on a regular basis. I don't think anyone would blame him. I couldn't handle the pressure, how could I demand it of someone else?
simplemts 8y ago
So by having a mortgage you justify unethical behavior? I fail to see how one creating their OWN problem justifies unethical behavior. "Be the change you want to see in the world."
- Spivak 8y ago
  It is unreasonable to expect someone to deliberately harm themselves -- self-sacrifice is noble but not an obligation.
simias 8y ago
In general I agree with you, clearly not everybody has the luxury of being able to quit their jobs if it doesn't align with their values, especially when the problem is so relatively benign in the grand scheme of things. I'm not trying to downplay Google's decision here, I invite everybody to stop using Chrome, but it's not like they're enslaving people or something. I can imagine that most people wouldn't risk hurting their families or losing their houses for something like that. That being said, is it really a concern for the average Google engineer? I mean sure, if we're talking about Google's cleaning staff I can imagine that leaving their jobs can be risky but software devs? Even assuming that they have multiple children and a huge mortgage, surely they can easily find other well paying job without much difficulty? You won't have me believe that the majority of Google's engineers is financially unable to quit their job. >Some have social anxiety and find job hunting an impossibly scary prospect. I'm sure that can be a factor but does it really justify anything? As far as looking for a job is concerned we have it super easy. If you can't stand for your values because of "social anxiety" then maybe you don't value your values that much? And I realize that I sound like I'm on a high horse right now and I am, but I'm talking out of experience. I've been in that situation in the past, doing a job that I found morally questionable but finding myself excuses. Don't make my mistake, it's not worth it. There's more to life than working full time tricking people into watching ads.
- somethingsimple 8y ago
  > If you can't stand for your values because of "social anxiety" then maybe you don't value your values that much? I’m not going to downvote you, but if you don’t suffer from social anxiety, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. As someone who is affected by it, I can tell you it’s soul crushing when it prevents you from making a move out of a bad situation. It’s completely paralyzing.
  - simias 8y ago
    I mean yeah, if you have a medical condition obviously it's different but that's not really what I was getting at. I'm sure a few Googlers have genuine reasons for being stuck in their jobs and maybe that's one of them but I'm sure it's not the case for most of them. My overall point is basically: if Google engineers can't justify quitting their jobs on moral grounds, then who can? We're utterly privileged compared to 99% of job sectors. If we are willing to give them a pass then we really can't complain about, say, people working for PRISM or military personnel in the drone programs, because I'm sure many of these people are in a much more precarious situation than your average Google engineer.
hjas 8y ago
That can certainly be the case, but it isn't really relevant in this case. Google have a infamous interview process, a very recognisable brand and essentially only hires in major location. Being able to walk across the street and get a new job is one major feature why people want to work for companies as Google and why they tolerate things like the interview process and high rents in the first place.
pluma 8y ago
Sure, but let's be honest: this isn't true for everyone working for Google (or whatever Big Bad you want to talk about). Tons of developers don't give a toss about ethics and just prefer to stay with their unethical employer because the tech is cool and it's more convenient to not to have to look for another job (even if you have it so easy you actually take time out of your day to whine on social media about recruiters pestering you with job offers). This already played out with the NSA after the Snowden leaks. The money is good, the tech is cool, so who cares if it's technically unethical as long as it's not illegal, nobody's going to hold you personally accountable and you still can easily find a job if things get too shady and you finally decide to leave. Also, people can rationalise doing all kinds of evil things as long as they're allowed to safely live in a bubble ("Facebook is about connecting people, which is a good thing, so Facebook is a force for good and improves people's lives" is a recent one I heard from an FB employee).
deleted 8y ago
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wu-ikkyu 8y ago

>people have mortgages, families and other commitments. Some have social anxiety and find job hunting an impossibly scary prospect. Others might suffer from depression. So what? Standing up for what you believe in is never easy, and almost always involves challenges like those. Imagine if Dr. King gave up because he was anxious and depressed with death threats coming in on a regular basis. Failing to take a moral/ethical stand because you're worried you might lose money or have to withstand some social anxiety blatantly shows that you don't really believe in those morals/ethics.

amyjess 8y ago
You don't have a right to subject your children to homelessness just because you felt like taking a stance based on feelings.
- icebraining 8y ago
  Does one have a right to give a crappy life example to one's children?
thecatspaw 8y ago
So, assuming you're tight on money, the job market is looking crap, but you got lucky and got a well paying job. Chances of getting another job are slim. You have a few responsibilities, a wife, say 2 kids, maybe even someone who needs medical bills paid. Do you just say "fuck it", and quit, ignoring all your responsibilities? Over cookies? Of course, when its not about cookies, but about something more drastic, say something ludicrous like giving google nuclear launch codes, then the whole thing looks different. Some things are worth the fight, some are not.
- gurkendoktor 8y ago
  > Some things are worth the fight, some are not. That argument goes both ways. If the Chrome team were unionized/organized in some form, and said "hell no" to the cookie change, then I doubt Google's management would shrug and replace the whole team with fresh H1B workers just to get this small change in. I also find it fascinating that so many people bring up children as a reason to give up your ideals. My dad gave up a well-paying job for a more fulfilling one, and it would never occur to me to blame him for it; if anything it's inspiring. This was in Europe, with a reasonable safety net, but I don't think that Xooglers would hit rock bottom anyway.
- mhjas 8y ago
  This isn't just about cookies though. When Google designed HTTP/2 they kept cookies in favor of a separate authentication mechanism. Arguably because otherwise people would end up removing cookies altogether making themselves harder to track and with Google losing ad money in the process. Now Google have seemingly decided they want to have their cake and eat it too, just only for themselves. This isn't one incident but Google manifesting thier direction for themselves and the Internet. (Just recently they also disabled sign out from their YouTube app for instance). If you disagree with this direction that is certainly a good reason too quit sooner rather than later. Pretty much everyone I have ever talked to that ended up changing e.g. jobs because of a disagreement wish they did so earlier. It is very easy to sit in the same position and hope that things will get better and hard to see what else is out there even if it is very clear in hindsight.
- wu-ikkyu 8y ago
  >Do you just say "fuck it", and quit, ignoring all your responsibilities? Over cookies? If you follow the news about Google at all, you'd know its obviously not just about cookies. >Of course, when its not about cookies, but about something more drastic It's about the the greatest surveillance apparatus in history encroaching towards total informational awareness.
  - thecatspaw 8y ago
    for the individual developer getting asked to implement this, it is over cookies. The decision is "Do I implement this, or do I tell my kids I dont know how to feed them"
Spivak 8y ago
> Imagine if Dr. King gave up because he was anxious and depressed with death threats coming in on a regular basis. I don't think anyone would blame him. I couldn't handle the pressure, how could I demand it of someone else?

simplemts 8y ago

So by having a mortgage you justify unethical behavior? I fail to see how one creating their OWN problem justifies unethical behavior. "Be the change you want to see in the world."

Spivak 8y ago
It is unreasonable to expect someone to deliberately harm themselves -- self-sacrifice is noble but not an obligation.

simias 8y ago

In general I agree with you, clearly not everybody has the luxury of being able to quit their jobs if it doesn't align with their values, especially when the problem is so relatively benign in the grand scheme of things. I'm not trying to downplay Google's decision here, I invite everybody to stop using Chrome, but it's not like they're enslaving people or something. I can imagine that most people wouldn't risk hurting their families or losing their houses for something like that. That being said, is it really a concern for the average Google engineer? I mean sure, if we're talking about Google's cleaning staff I can imagine that leaving their jobs can be risky but software devs? Even assuming that they have multiple children and a huge mortgage, surely they can easily find other well paying job without much difficulty? You won't have me believe that the majority of Google's engineers is financially unable to quit their job. >Some have social anxiety and find job hunting an impossibly scary prospect. I'm sure that can be a factor but does it really justify anything? As far as looking for a job is concerned we have it super easy. If you can't stand for your values because of "social anxiety" then maybe you don't value your values that much? And I realize that I sound like I'm on a high horse right now and I am, but I'm talking out of experience. I've been in that situation in the past, doing a job that I found morally questionable but finding myself excuses. Don't make my mistake, it's not worth it. There's more to life than working full time tricking people into watching ads.

somethingsimple 8y ago
> If you can't stand for your values because of "social anxiety" then maybe you don't value your values that much? I’m not going to downvote you, but if you don’t suffer from social anxiety, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. As someone who is affected by it, I can tell you it’s soul crushing when it prevents you from making a move out of a bad situation. It’s completely paralyzing.
- simias 8y ago
  I mean yeah, if you have a medical condition obviously it's different but that's not really what I was getting at. I'm sure a few Googlers have genuine reasons for being stuck in their jobs and maybe that's one of them but I'm sure it's not the case for most of them. My overall point is basically: if Google engineers can't justify quitting their jobs on moral grounds, then who can? We're utterly privileged compared to 99% of job sectors. If we are willing to give them a pass then we really can't complain about, say, people working for PRISM or military personnel in the drone programs, because I'm sure many of these people are in a much more precarious situation than your average Google engineer.

hjas 8y ago

That can certainly be the case, but it isn't really relevant in this case. Google have a infamous interview process, a very recognisable brand and essentially only hires in major location. Being able to walk across the street and get a new job is one major feature why people want to work for companies as Google and why they tolerate things like the interview process and high rents in the first place.

pluma 8y ago

Sure, but let's be honest: this isn't true for everyone working for Google (or whatever Big Bad you want to talk about). Tons of developers don't give a toss about ethics and just prefer to stay with their unethical employer because the tech is cool and it's more convenient to not to have to look for another job (even if you have it so easy you actually take time out of your day to whine on social media about recruiters pestering you with job offers). This already played out with the NSA after the Snowden leaks. The money is good, the tech is cool, so who cares if it's technically unethical as long as it's not illegal, nobody's going to hold you personally accountable and you still can easily find a job if things get too shady and you finally decide to leave. Also, people can rationalise doing all kinds of evil things as long as they're allowed to safely live in a bubble ("Facebook is about connecting people, which is a good thing, so Facebook is a force for good and improves people's lives" is a recent one I heard from an FB employee).

deleted 8y ago

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