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What's the alternative to Android though? Apple has its own well-documented issues, as well as a rather large price-tag. I just use my phone for maps and some c

What's the alternative to Android though? Apple has its own well-documented issues, as well as a rather large price-tag. I just use my phone for maps and some chat services, don't need a very fancy phone. Even the iPhone 7 is listed at £449, which is already £150 more than I paid for my Sony Xperia. I wish stuff like HP WebOS or Meego was still alive, but as far as I know, Apple and Google are the only serious players in town at the moment :-(

neuronic 8y ago
> Even the iPhone 7 is listed at £449, which is already £150 more than I paid for my Sony Xperia. In my own personal experience that would be some really well invested £150...
- rebolek 8y ago
  So I don't have to be poor to not be spied on. Got it. If I can afford just some cheap-ass phone, I deserve to be spied on.
  - neuronic 8y ago
    I didn't say that. Complain with Android manufacturers or get a 5S or 6 series iPhone then. Apple isn't responsible for the other manufacturers bullshit. At least Apple provides brand new OS software for 5 year old phones.
JulienSchmidt 8y ago
Android (the Android Open Source Project) itself is not the Problem. It's the lock-in ecosystem that Google tries to establish with the Google Services Framework, Play Store and the like. What is missing, is an open and privacy-friendly alternative to GSF. Without GSF we don't have efficient push notifications (Firebase Cloud Messaging), a geolocation provider, a maps API etc. Personally, I have been using microG (https://microg.org/ https://microg.org/) instead of GSF on my phone for many years now. However, that is still just a partial solution. While it does its best to be privacy-friendly and does not have any integrated tracking / analytics like GSF, it still has to use Google's servers for push notifications, thus tracking is still possible to some degree.
- rattray 8y ago
  how is the product quality of microG? if a user is happy with GSF, will they be disappointed with microG?
  - JulienSchmidt 8y ago
    microG is certainly not perfect and I wouldn't recommend it to the average user. Expect some things to not work or even certain apps to crash. It's a techie-solution for people who value their privacy highly.
- snaky 8y ago
  > Without GSF we don't have efficient push notifications "How Tutanota replaced Google’s FCM with their own notification system (f-droid.org)" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17945116 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17945116
ealhad 8y ago
LineageOS, and other custom Android distributions without Google services.
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  Doesn't LineageOS still use Google Play Services?
  - groovybits 8y ago
    No. The only part of Google associated with LOS is that it uses G's DNS servers.
  - binomialxenon 8y ago
    Google Play Services and other nonfree Google software can be installed on top of LineageOS, but LineageOS does not include them in its installation. I've used Lineage extensively with F-Droid as my apps source.
karmelapple 8y ago
What, specifically, are Apple’s well documented issues? They have fought for user privacy in court cases and in the court of public opinion over the last couple of years.
turtle4 8y ago
There are no perfect alternatives, just imperfect ones. Apple has their own issues, but they've claimed that their business is selling you a device and software and media to run on it, and making their money from that as opposed to reselling your data. Everything they've been doing lately supports that stance, and they've already recognized it as a differentiation, hence the way they have been up-playing the privacy features of their devices lately. Since they aren't selling you as much after the fact, they are going to charge you more up-front, and since they make their money selling software, they're obsessed with controlling the marketplace. Google gives away software and media, and sells your personal data and advertising. They're showing increasingly that they don't care about your privacy if it affects their bottom line. You have to decide which of those business models you support, and then support it. There's no third model where a business gives everything away and cares about your privacy. That's inconsistent with a bottom line of making money, and at the end of the day that is what the business is trying to do. For a while Google gave the impression that they cared, until they established a large enough market, and now you're seeing them make the natural transition. They've grew their cash cow by giving away stuff, now they are milking it. Any rational company with their business model is going to do the same thing though, so if you jump ship to another ecosystem now selling you a business model that is too good to be true, don't be surprised down the line when that proves to be the case.
- binomialxenon 8y ago
  Google does make a ton of money from ads and tracking, but how do they not "sell software and media" too? They sell apps and media in the same manner that Apple does.
  - reitanqild 8y ago
    Abusing users isn't OK just because they've found additional ways to extract money from users. Disclaimer: I was a Google fanboy until a few years ago and I disliked but trusted Google until a couple of weeks ago. Now I don't know what to do but at least I've finally got around to switching my search habits.
    - 8y ago
zanny 8y ago
You can use Android without Google. Just get Lineage and don't install gapps.
- kelnos 8y ago
  How is the experience, though? Do you find that most mainstream apps run without issues? Or do you need to exclusively depend on one of the OSS app ecosystems like F-Droid?
  - cmurf 8y ago
    Google tracks you via Play Services. And any Google application comes with Play. So if you're trying to get away from Google tracking, you have to get completely out of the eco system including Play Store. So yeah F-Droid (haven't used it) or what I just mentioned in another answer, Aptoide (haven't used it but searched for some common apps and found them).
    - kelnos 8y ago
      Sure, I get that. But everything is a trade off. I'm probably not as concerned about the privacy issues inherent in Play & GSF, but I'm at least somewhat concerned. Just trying to figure out what exactly I'd be giving up, and in what ways I'd make my life more difficult. (Obviously that's a pretty me-specific thing, so I'm probably not gonna get a great answer here. But I think it's worth thinking about.)
- ktpsns 8y ago
  I'm quite surprised how many up-to-date applications can be installed via APK files or alternative markets (F-Droid) and work. For instance, thinking of Threema or Whatsapp, two continously maintained applications which do not inevitably depend on GApps.
ummonk 8y ago
The iPhone 7 will likely be supported with security updates for a lot longer than the Sony Xperia.
alain94040 8y ago
[Apple] a rather large price-tag I can't resist the sarcasm. In that thread, others argue vehemently that you should sacrifice your money for your values. So arguing that the more privacy-conscious phone is too expensive, is... an unexpected argument :-)
skykooler 8y ago
SailfishOS is still around, which is pretty much the spiritual successor to Meego. That said, even in Finland it has a tiny fraction of the market share of Android and iOS.
- AzMoo_ 8y ago
  You can't even buy Sailfish outside of the EU and it only works on specific devices right now.
cmurf 8y ago
You can run Lineage OS without installing gapps. It's all the Google apps, including Play, that does all the tracking. I'm not 100% certain, but I see references in the bugreport log to dm-verity so I'm pretty sure it's doing cryptographically verified boot. And then the next question is what are the alternative store options and which is the best? Google searching (oops! irony!) I found aptoide.com, and found they have a lot of apps: Firefox, Firefox Focus, Lastpass, Expedia, Chime Bank, etc. I don't know how their build and distribution system ensures safe binaries - didn't check it out. I recently dropped Google Maps in favor of OsmAnd, and I'm still having growing pains. You have to download maps offline, it's not on demand. It looks like I only get 7 downloads for free. I haven't checked pricing. I'm not sure what happens if I do a phone reset, if I get a new stack of downloads or not. Local searches are super screwy, listing things like delis, pizza, hardware store, in other towns but not my own town. It's...not like Google Maps.
ppeetteerr 8y ago
That 150 extra is paid for by Google's ad network.
jeremiem 8y ago
Hopefully PureOS on a Librem 5

neuronic 8y ago

> Even the iPhone 7 is listed at £449, which is already £150 more than I paid for my Sony Xperia. In my own personal experience that would be some really well invested £150...

rebolek 8y ago
So I don't have to be poor to not be spied on. Got it. If I can afford just some cheap-ass phone, I deserve to be spied on.
- neuronic 8y ago
  I didn't say that. Complain with Android manufacturers or get a 5S or 6 series iPhone then. Apple isn't responsible for the other manufacturers bullshit. At least Apple provides brand new OS software for 5 year old phones.

JulienSchmidt 8y ago

Android (the Android Open Source Project) itself is not the Problem. It's the lock-in ecosystem that Google tries to establish with the Google Services Framework, Play Store and the like. What is missing, is an open and privacy-friendly alternative to GSF. Without GSF we don't have efficient push notifications (Firebase Cloud Messaging), a geolocation provider, a maps API etc. Personally, I have been using microG (https://microg.org/ https://microg.org/) instead of GSF on my phone for many years now. However, that is still just a partial solution. While it does its best to be privacy-friendly and does not have any integrated tracking / analytics like GSF, it still has to use Google's servers for push notifications, thus tracking is still possible to some degree.

rattray 8y ago
how is the product quality of microG? if a user is happy with GSF, will they be disappointed with microG?
- JulienSchmidt 8y ago
  microG is certainly not perfect and I wouldn't recommend it to the average user. Expect some things to not work or even certain apps to crash. It's a techie-solution for people who value their privacy highly.
snaky 8y ago
> Without GSF we don't have efficient push notifications "How Tutanota replaced Google’s FCM with their own notification system (f-droid.org)" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17945116 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17945116

ealhad 8y ago

LineageOS, and other custom Android distributions without Google services.

prolikewh0a 8y ago
Doesn't LineageOS still use Google Play Services?
- groovybits 8y ago
  No. The only part of Google associated with LOS is that it uses G's DNS servers.
- binomialxenon 8y ago
  Google Play Services and other nonfree Google software can be installed on top of LineageOS, but LineageOS does not include them in its installation. I've used Lineage extensively with F-Droid as my apps source.

karmelapple 8y ago

What, specifically, are Apple’s well documented issues? They have fought for user privacy in court cases and in the court of public opinion over the last couple of years.

turtle4 8y ago

There are no perfect alternatives, just imperfect ones. Apple has their own issues, but they've claimed that their business is selling you a device and software and media to run on it, and making their money from that as opposed to reselling your data. Everything they've been doing lately supports that stance, and they've already recognized it as a differentiation, hence the way they have been up-playing the privacy features of their devices lately. Since they aren't selling you as much after the fact, they are going to charge you more up-front, and since they make their money selling software, they're obsessed with controlling the marketplace. Google gives away software and media, and sells your personal data and advertising. They're showing increasingly that they don't care about your privacy if it affects their bottom line. You have to decide which of those business models you support, and then support it. There's no third model where a business gives everything away and cares about your privacy. That's inconsistent with a bottom line of making money, and at the end of the day that is what the business is trying to do. For a while Google gave the impression that they cared, until they established a large enough market, and now you're seeing them make the natural transition. They've grew their cash cow by giving away stuff, now they are milking it. Any rational company with their business model is going to do the same thing though, so if you jump ship to another ecosystem now selling you a business model that is too good to be true, don't be surprised down the line when that proves to be the case.

binomialxenon 8y ago
Google does make a ton of money from ads and tracking, but how do they not "sell software and media" too? They sell apps and media in the same manner that Apple does.
- reitanqild 8y ago
  Abusing users isn't OK just because they've found additional ways to extract money from users. Disclaimer: I was a Google fanboy until a few years ago and I disliked but trusted Google until a couple of weeks ago. Now I don't know what to do but at least I've finally got around to switching my search habits.
  - 8y ago

zanny 8y ago

You can use Android without Google. Just get Lineage and don't install gapps.

kelnos 8y ago
How is the experience, though? Do you find that most mainstream apps run without issues? Or do you need to exclusively depend on one of the OSS app ecosystems like F-Droid?
- cmurf 8y ago
  Google tracks you via Play Services. And any Google application comes with Play. So if you're trying to get away from Google tracking, you have to get completely out of the eco system including Play Store. So yeah F-Droid (haven't used it) or what I just mentioned in another answer, Aptoide (haven't used it but searched for some common apps and found them).
  - kelnos 8y ago
    Sure, I get that. But everything is a trade off. I'm probably not as concerned about the privacy issues inherent in Play & GSF, but I'm at least somewhat concerned. Just trying to figure out what exactly I'd be giving up, and in what ways I'd make my life more difficult. (Obviously that's a pretty me-specific thing, so I'm probably not gonna get a great answer here. But I think it's worth thinking about.)
ktpsns 8y ago
I'm quite surprised how many up-to-date applications can be installed via APK files or alternative markets (F-Droid) and work. For instance, thinking of Threema or Whatsapp, two continously maintained applications which do not inevitably depend on GApps.

ummonk 8y ago

The iPhone 7 will likely be supported with security updates for a lot longer than the Sony Xperia.

alain94040 8y ago

[Apple] a rather large price-tag I can't resist the sarcasm. In that thread, others argue vehemently that you should sacrifice your money for your values. So arguing that the more privacy-conscious phone is too expensive, is... an unexpected argument :-)

skykooler 8y ago

SailfishOS is still around, which is pretty much the spiritual successor to Meego. That said, even in Finland it has a tiny fraction of the market share of Android and iOS.

AzMoo_ 8y ago
You can't even buy Sailfish outside of the EU and it only works on specific devices right now.

cmurf 8y ago

You can run Lineage OS without installing gapps. It's all the Google apps, including Play, that does all the tracking. I'm not 100% certain, but I see references in the bugreport log to dm-verity so I'm pretty sure it's doing cryptographically verified boot. And then the next question is what are the alternative store options and which is the best? Google searching (oops! irony!) I found aptoide.com, and found they have a lot of apps: Firefox, Firefox Focus, Lastpass, Expedia, Chime Bank, etc. I don't know how their build and distribution system ensures safe binaries - didn't check it out. I recently dropped Google Maps in favor of OsmAnd, and I'm still having growing pains. You have to download maps offline, it's not on demand. It looks like I only get 7 downloads for free. I haven't checked pricing. I'm not sure what happens if I do a phone reset, if I get a new stack of downloads or not. Local searches are super screwy, listing things like delis, pizza, hardware store, in other towns but not my own town. It's...not like Google Maps.

ppeetteerr 8y ago

That 150 extra is paid for by Google's ad network.

jeremiem 8y ago

Hopefully PureOS on a Librem 5