5 ms·

If the company is asking you to do things that you find ethically untenable, you should leave, even in full knowledge that the company will find a way to do it

If the company is asking you to do things that you find ethically untenable, you should leave, even in full knowledge that the company will find a way to do it anyway.

mattferderer 8y ago
You should first ask, can I & others change the company from within. Many people credit a small group of Microsoft employees for getting the company to embrace open source. This group grew from within as I'm told.
- codethief 8y ago
  > Many people credit a small group of Microsoft employees for getting the company to embrace open source. This group grew from within as I'm told. I've been wondering how this transition came about. Do you have more information on that (e.g. an article or a blog post that you could refer me to)?
  - mattferderer 8y ago
    Just years of seeing them credited in random forums & social media sites. Quick Google Search: Credits Hanselman & Guthrie - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8596268 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8596268 AMA w/ Hanselman mentions it being 10 yrs ago - https://hashnode.com/ama/with-scott-hanselman-cjbx98jh506b34cwtk99ik5ep https://hashnode.com/ama/with-scott-hanselman-cjbx98jh506b34... This article might be exactly what you're looking for - https://thenewstack.io/microsoft-finally-came-around-open-source/ https://thenewstack.io/microsoft-finally-came-around-open-so...
- hanniabu 8y ago
  I'd bet that's a PR stunt to retain employees
onetimemanytime 8y ago
They are lotsa shades of gray and (virtually) every company does things that are somewhat fishy. But, IMO, Google has gone to black
laumars 8y ago
In an ideal world, yes. But people have mortgages, families and other commitments. Some have social anxiety and find job hunting an impossibly scary prospect. Others might suffer from depression. It's all good and well placing generalised ethics on individuals to do the right thing but in those kind of ideal world scenarios you also wouldn't have accountants finding tax loopholes, lawyers perpetuating patent abuse, nor company directors asking their staff to do morally objectionable things to begin with.
- wu-ikkyu 8y ago
  >people have mortgages, families and other commitments. Some have social anxiety and find job hunting an impossibly scary prospect. Others might suffer from depression. So what? Standing up for what you believe in is never easy, and almost always involves challenges like those. Imagine if Dr. King gave up because he was anxious and depressed with death threats coming in on a regular basis. Failing to take a moral/ethical stand because you're worried you might lose money or have to withstand some social anxiety blatantly shows that you don't really believe in those morals/ethics.
  - amyjess 8y ago
    You don't have a right to subject your children to homelessness just because you felt like taking a stance based on feelings.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      Does one have a right to give a crappy life example to one's children?
  - thecatspaw 8y ago
    So, assuming you're tight on money, the job market is looking crap, but you got lucky and got a well paying job. Chances of getting another job are slim. You have a few responsibilities, a wife, say 2 kids, maybe even someone who needs medical bills paid. Do you just say "fuck it", and quit, ignoring all your responsibilities? Over cookies? Of course, when its not about cookies, but about something more drastic, say something ludicrous like giving google nuclear launch codes, then the whole thing looks different. Some things are worth the fight, some are not.
namesbc 8y ago
Come on. Most users want their "chrome google account" to be the same as their "web google account", and it is confusing when they aren't. You can argue it is unethical to build tech for the military. But you have a really broad definition of unethical if it includes improving a product so the default is what most users want, and you need to adjust some things to make it the way you want.

If the company is asking you to do things that you find ethically untenable, you should leave, even in full knowledge that the company will find a way to do it anyway.

mattferderer 8y ago

You should first ask, can I & others change the company from within. Many people credit a small group of Microsoft employees for getting the company to embrace open source. This group grew from within as I'm told.

codethief 8y ago
> Many people credit a small group of Microsoft employees for getting the company to embrace open source. This group grew from within as I'm told. I've been wondering how this transition came about. Do you have more information on that (e.g. an article or a blog post that you could refer me to)?
- mattferderer 8y ago
  Just years of seeing them credited in random forums & social media sites. Quick Google Search: Credits Hanselman & Guthrie - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8596268 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8596268 AMA w/ Hanselman mentions it being 10 yrs ago - https://hashnode.com/ama/with-scott-hanselman-cjbx98jh506b34cwtk99ik5ep https://hashnode.com/ama/with-scott-hanselman-cjbx98jh506b34... This article might be exactly what you're looking for - https://thenewstack.io/microsoft-finally-came-around-open-source/ https://thenewstack.io/microsoft-finally-came-around-open-so...
hanniabu 8y ago
I'd bet that's a PR stunt to retain employees

onetimemanytime 8y ago

They are lotsa shades of gray and (virtually) every company does things that are somewhat fishy. But, IMO, Google has gone to black

laumars 8y ago

In an ideal world, yes. But people have mortgages, families and other commitments. Some have social anxiety and find job hunting an impossibly scary prospect. Others might suffer from depression. It's all good and well placing generalised ethics on individuals to do the right thing but in those kind of ideal world scenarios you also wouldn't have accountants finding tax loopholes, lawyers perpetuating patent abuse, nor company directors asking their staff to do morally objectionable things to begin with.

wu-ikkyu 8y ago
>people have mortgages, families and other commitments. Some have social anxiety and find job hunting an impossibly scary prospect. Others might suffer from depression. So what? Standing up for what you believe in is never easy, and almost always involves challenges like those. Imagine if Dr. King gave up because he was anxious and depressed with death threats coming in on a regular basis. Failing to take a moral/ethical stand because you're worried you might lose money or have to withstand some social anxiety blatantly shows that you don't really believe in those morals/ethics.
- amyjess 8y ago
  You don't have a right to subject your children to homelessness just because you felt like taking a stance based on feelings.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    Does one have a right to give a crappy life example to one's children?
- thecatspaw 8y ago
  So, assuming you're tight on money, the job market is looking crap, but you got lucky and got a well paying job. Chances of getting another job are slim. You have a few responsibilities, a wife, say 2 kids, maybe even someone who needs medical bills paid. Do you just say "fuck it", and quit, ignoring all your responsibilities? Over cookies? Of course, when its not about cookies, but about something more drastic, say something ludicrous like giving google nuclear launch codes, then the whole thing looks different. Some things are worth the fight, some are not.

namesbc 8y ago

Come on. Most users want their "chrome google account" to be the same as their "web google account", and it is confusing when they aren't. You can argue it is unethical to build tech for the military. But you have a really broad definition of unethical if it includes improving a product so the default is what most users want, and you need to adjust some things to make it the way you want.